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My own pet theory of the relevant personality disorders is this: Narcissism and Boderline are extremes on the same scale, namely, how you manage your identity.

My own pet theory of the relevant personality disorders is this: Narcissism and Boderline are extremes on the same scale, namely, how you manage your identity. BPDs are "extreme followers" which seek whole systems of validation, identity and meaning from their local social environment. NPDs are "extreme leaders" which cannot receive this validation socially, so push-out a delusional theory of their own identity (, role, value system, etc.). -- Which is why, so often, the structure of a cult is one NPD leader and a coterie of BPD followers. If this scale exists, ie., from follower-to-leader... then many conditions can influence your position on it. A "healthy" person is presumably one who, I'd say, is mostly a mild follower but will adopt a mild leader position when required (eg., by role). In ASD, my guess is that since some social mirror / double-empathy /etc. is different/impair, you get NPD-like problems because you're not getting that social validation feedback signal, so you're having to push out some validation/identity/etc. system of your own. Likewise in ADHD, you tend to find a lot of social rejection due to impulsive behaviours that alienate people.. so you get a comorbid BPD-ish quality where you're aware of the social validation available, but are constantly fighting your own impulsive undermining of receiving it. One diagnostic difference between the ASD-ADHD vs. NPD-BDP categorisation should be the possibility of self-awareness, where in the former you'd expect improving self-awareness to have some immediate benefits -- but in the later, often none. Since position on the leader-follower line in ASD/ADHD is effectively an "ecological concequence" of repeated accidental behaviours, whereas in NPD/BPD its something stranger and I think less well understood. One imagines, most probably, very early infant trauma that has severely impaired psycho-social development.

whatnotests2 2y ago
Thank you for making such a well thought out comment. Describing ASD/ADHD and NPD/BPD as extremes on different axes, and relating that extremity to facets of their behavior, especially with regard to cults, is brilliant.
tailspin2019 2y ago
> My own pet theory As pet theories go - this seems like a pretty good one! Very interesting. > Which is why, so often, the structure of a cult is one NPD leader and a coterie of BPD followers. I've definitely observed this in a business setting and can think of some well-known (tech company) examples too.
stavros 2y ago
> Likewise in ADHD, you tend to find a lot of social rejection due to impulsive behaviours that alienate people.. so you get a comorbid BPD-ish quality where you're aware of the social validation available, but are constantly fighting your own impulsive undermining of receiving it. ADHD (or maybe autism?) isn't about social rejection, it's about the opposite. Sometimes people will try to reject you/put you down ("haha, you wear glasses, four-eyes"), but you don't understand the intention ("yes, this is accurate") and are just puzzled that someone would say a fact out of the blue. Correspondingly, you might mention a fact "these jeans make your ass look fat" without meaning any judgement, and the person will take it as a rejection. That's why this is hard to navigate, not because people reject you initially.
- jdub 2y ago
  You're thinking of a stereotype of autism. ADHD frequently involves Rejection Sensitivity Dysmorphia, which makes someone more attuned to, while also more likely to misconstrue, social signals.
  - stavros 2y ago
    I'm not thinking of a stereotype of something, I'm just recounting my personal experience.
    - mjburgess 2y ago
      You're describing social impairments, which are there too, but this is a different issue. More common with people that have very severe ADHD symptoms, moreso than ASD ones. What causes the "ADHD as extreme follower" issue -- which I have speculatively explained as a concequence of repeated social rejection with the capacity and desire for acceptance. This is quite different than in actual BPD where I'm not even really sure BPD people actually understand social acceptance or really want it. It's more extreme than that: there isnt a basic capacity for identity developed enough to actually have a BPD person understand that they are or are not accepted. Not least, since most BPD are actually readily accepted into most social groups over the short term. Whereas in ADHD, impulsive responses impair that acceptance over most time horizons.
liminvorous 2y ago
I've heard from a clinical psychologist and also from a bunch of people on the internet that the symptoms of BDP are often presented by (especially female) traumatized autists, and they run a high risk of being misdiagnosed with BDP. and based on the diagnosed (entirely AFAB) autistic people I know socially none of them show any signs of being unaware of or unmotivated by social validation. Also there is a high overlap between autism and ADHD, many people have both characterizing them as opposite ends of a spectrum sounds like a stretch.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  > Also there is a high overlap between autism and ADHD, many people have both characterizing them as opposite ends of a spectrum sounds like a stretch. I think it's only a stretch if you think that someone only exists at a single point on that spectrum. If it's more like a spectrum of characteristics, then wouldn't it seem like strong autistic characteristics could exist at one end, strong adhd characteristics could exist at the other, and a lot of the shared overlapping characteristics exist in the middle?
- mjburgess 2y ago
  The most common BPD misdiagnosis is with CPTSD, especially in girls. Tbh, "BPD" as far as young women goes is so often essentially misogyny on the part of the diagnostician. That said, I've not heard of the traumatised autistic angle -- this would be consistent with CPTSD, since that's the co-morbidity you would diagnose.
thelittleone 2y ago
A family relation I know exhibita both BPD and NPD. If your description is correct, that theyre opposite extremes on the same scale, I can only imagine the internal mental and emotional chaos.
AbstractH24 2y ago
> My own pet theory of the relevant personality disorders is this: Narcissism and Boderline are extremes on the same scale, namely, how you manage your identity. A therapist once told me that depression is overthinking the past while anxiety is overthinking the future. Was an interesting way to think of how they are two sides of the same coin.

whatnotests2 2y ago

Thank you for making such a well thought out comment. Describing ASD/ADHD and NPD/BPD as extremes on different axes, and relating that extremity to facets of their behavior, especially with regard to cults, is brilliant.

tailspin2019 2y ago

> My own pet theory As pet theories go - this seems like a pretty good one! Very interesting. > Which is why, so often, the structure of a cult is one NPD leader and a coterie of BPD followers. I've definitely observed this in a business setting and can think of some well-known (tech company) examples too.

stavros 2y ago

> Likewise in ADHD, you tend to find a lot of social rejection due to impulsive behaviours that alienate people.. so you get a comorbid BPD-ish quality where you're aware of the social validation available, but are constantly fighting your own impulsive undermining of receiving it. ADHD (or maybe autism?) isn't about social rejection, it's about the opposite. Sometimes people will try to reject you/put you down ("haha, you wear glasses, four-eyes"), but you don't understand the intention ("yes, this is accurate") and are just puzzled that someone would say a fact out of the blue. Correspondingly, you might mention a fact "these jeans make your ass look fat" without meaning any judgement, and the person will take it as a rejection. That's why this is hard to navigate, not because people reject you initially.

jdub 2y ago
You're thinking of a stereotype of autism. ADHD frequently involves Rejection Sensitivity Dysmorphia, which makes someone more attuned to, while also more likely to misconstrue, social signals.
- stavros 2y ago
  I'm not thinking of a stereotype of something, I'm just recounting my personal experience.
  - mjburgess 2y ago
    You're describing social impairments, which are there too, but this is a different issue. More common with people that have very severe ADHD symptoms, moreso than ASD ones. What causes the "ADHD as extreme follower" issue -- which I have speculatively explained as a concequence of repeated social rejection with the capacity and desire for acceptance. This is quite different than in actual BPD where I'm not even really sure BPD people actually understand social acceptance or really want it. It's more extreme than that: there isnt a basic capacity for identity developed enough to actually have a BPD person understand that they are or are not accepted. Not least, since most BPD are actually readily accepted into most social groups over the short term. Whereas in ADHD, impulsive responses impair that acceptance over most time horizons.

liminvorous 2y ago

I've heard from a clinical psychologist and also from a bunch of people on the internet that the symptoms of BDP are often presented by (especially female) traumatized autists, and they run a high risk of being misdiagnosed with BDP. and based on the diagnosed (entirely AFAB) autistic people I know socially none of them show any signs of being unaware of or unmotivated by social validation. Also there is a high overlap between autism and ADHD, many people have both characterizing them as opposite ends of a spectrum sounds like a stretch.

bluefirebrand 2y ago
> Also there is a high overlap between autism and ADHD, many people have both characterizing them as opposite ends of a spectrum sounds like a stretch. I think it's only a stretch if you think that someone only exists at a single point on that spectrum. If it's more like a spectrum of characteristics, then wouldn't it seem like strong autistic characteristics could exist at one end, strong adhd characteristics could exist at the other, and a lot of the shared overlapping characteristics exist in the middle?
mjburgess 2y ago
The most common BPD misdiagnosis is with CPTSD, especially in girls. Tbh, "BPD" as far as young women goes is so often essentially misogyny on the part of the diagnostician. That said, I've not heard of the traumatised autistic angle -- this would be consistent with CPTSD, since that's the co-morbidity you would diagnose.

thelittleone 2y ago

A family relation I know exhibita both BPD and NPD. If your description is correct, that theyre opposite extremes on the same scale, I can only imagine the internal mental and emotional chaos.

AbstractH24 2y ago

> My own pet theory of the relevant personality disorders is this: Narcissism and Boderline are extremes on the same scale, namely, how you manage your identity. A therapist once told me that depression is overthinking the past while anxiety is overthinking the future. Was an interesting way to think of how they are two sides of the same coin.