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Then it's called "Identity Theft", and deflected back to you as your problem to resolve. But, it's no big deal. I'm sure everyone everywhere qualifies for a yea

Then it's called "Identity Theft", and deflected back to you as your problem to resolve. But, it's no big deal. I'm sure everyone everywhere qualifies for a year's worth of free credit monitoring.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> it's called "Identity Theft", and deflected back to you as your problem to resolve Not really. At that point it becomes an open question that both sides will furiously try to resolve in their favour. What you're advocating (and I agree with) is biasing the odds in favour of the allegedly defrauded. For example, if you file an affadavit of identity theft with a credit bureau (or court), collections on that item are suspended for a fixed amount of time.
- batch12 2y ago
  When someone uses my SSN to set up a loan, I'm not the victim, the bank is. There's no such thing as identity theft. That's just good marketing and a genius slight-of-hand to move the responsibility and blame away from the entity that allowed itself to be defrauded.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > When someone uses my SSN to set up a loan, I'm not the victim, the bank is If someone steals your car and uses it to run over a pedestrian, both you and the pedestrian are victims. They're far more damaged. And you aren't at any fault, even if you e.g. didn't lock it or even left it with the keys in. It's still going to create a mess for you. Fraud involving a stolen identity is similar. The defrauded is most damaged. But the person whose identity was used is also in a mess. Obviously, if a bank has a loan in your name it's going to need to talk to you to straighten things out. And the way it would prefer things be straightened out is also, obviously, that the loan be paid versus poofed. (And on the other side, there are also going to be people who borrowed money who claim they never did.)
    - stavros 2y ago
      If someone steals my car and kills someone with it, I'm not liable for murder. I just had a car stolen. If someone who looks nothing like me steals my passport and convinces someone to loan them a bunch of money, I'm not liable for that money, the person who loaned money to someone without checking the photo is just out of luck. If the bank does the above, suddenly it's my problem for "getting my identity stolen".
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > If someone steals my car and kills someone with it, I'm not liable for murder. I just had a car stolen. Right. You're a victim. And you'll probably be involved in the process of investigating and resolving the manslaughter. > If someone who looks nothing like me steals my passport and convinces someone to loan them a bunch of money, I'm not liable for that money Right. But you're obviously going to be involved in sorting out that mess, even if that begins and ends with "fuck off." > If the bank does the above, suddenly it's my problem for "getting my identity stolen" How? If someone opens a credit line in my name in a foreign country, and I'm never contacted about it, it's not my problem. It only becomes my problem if they try to take my stuff. Identity theft is in the same category, from the victim's perspective, as a bank error. If a bank mistakenly initiates foreclosure proceedings against me, that's their mistake. But it's my problem. That's the basic reality of the situation. (For a lower-level analog, if you accuse the wrong person of a crime to a police officer, that's your mistake. But it's their problem.) What you're recognising is how much more powerful the bank is than you or me. Given how common identity theft is, they shouldn't be given the benefit of doubt they (or anyone else) would if they had a piece of paper purporting to promise something from us to them. But we have to recognise this isn't a return to the status quo; we're creating an exception.
        stavros 2y ago
        If someone kills someone with my car, and I do nothing, I'm innocent until proven guilty. If a bank mistakenly initiates foreclosure proceedings against me, and I do nothing, what happens?

Then it's called "Identity Theft", and deflected back to you as your problem to resolve. But, it's no big deal. I'm sure everyone everywhere qualifies for a year's worth of free credit monitoring.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> it's called "Identity Theft", and deflected back to you as your problem to resolve Not really. At that point it becomes an open question that both sides will furiously try to resolve in their favour. What you're advocating (and I agree with) is biasing the odds in favour of the allegedly defrauded. For example, if you file an affadavit of identity theft with a credit bureau (or court), collections on that item are suspended for a fixed amount of time.

batch12 2y ago
When someone uses my SSN to set up a loan, I'm not the victim, the bank is. There's no such thing as identity theft. That's just good marketing and a genius slight-of-hand to move the responsibility and blame away from the entity that allowed itself to be defrauded.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > When someone uses my SSN to set up a loan, I'm not the victim, the bank is If someone steals your car and uses it to run over a pedestrian, both you and the pedestrian are victims. They're far more damaged. And you aren't at any fault, even if you e.g. didn't lock it or even left it with the keys in. It's still going to create a mess for you. Fraud involving a stolen identity is similar. The defrauded is most damaged. But the person whose identity was used is also in a mess. Obviously, if a bank has a loan in your name it's going to need to talk to you to straighten things out. And the way it would prefer things be straightened out is also, obviously, that the loan be paid versus poofed. (And on the other side, there are also going to be people who borrowed money who claim they never did.)
  - stavros 2y ago
    If someone steals my car and kills someone with it, I'm not liable for murder. I just had a car stolen. If someone who looks nothing like me steals my passport and convinces someone to loan them a bunch of money, I'm not liable for that money, the person who loaned money to someone without checking the photo is just out of luck. If the bank does the above, suddenly it's my problem for "getting my identity stolen".
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > If someone steals my car and kills someone with it, I'm not liable for murder. I just had a car stolen. Right. You're a victim. And you'll probably be involved in the process of investigating and resolving the manslaughter. > If someone who looks nothing like me steals my passport and convinces someone to loan them a bunch of money, I'm not liable for that money Right. But you're obviously going to be involved in sorting out that mess, even if that begins and ends with "fuck off." > If the bank does the above, suddenly it's my problem for "getting my identity stolen" How? If someone opens a credit line in my name in a foreign country, and I'm never contacted about it, it's not my problem. It only becomes my problem if they try to take my stuff. Identity theft is in the same category, from the victim's perspective, as a bank error. If a bank mistakenly initiates foreclosure proceedings against me, that's their mistake. But it's my problem. That's the basic reality of the situation. (For a lower-level analog, if you accuse the wrong person of a crime to a police officer, that's your mistake. But it's their problem.) What you're recognising is how much more powerful the bank is than you or me. Given how common identity theft is, they shouldn't be given the benefit of doubt they (or anyone else) would if they had a piece of paper purporting to promise something from us to them. But we have to recognise this isn't a return to the status quo; we're creating an exception.
      - stavros 2y ago
        If someone kills someone with my car, and I do nothing, I'm innocent until proven guilty. If a bank mistakenly initiates foreclosure proceedings against me, and I do nothing, what happens?