4 ms·

As you seem to agree, the final product seems rather questionable, with incredibly poor reliability and build quality for a $100+K car. The innovation and risk

As you seem to agree, the final product seems rather questionable, with incredibly poor reliability and build quality for a $100+K car. The innovation and risk taking mainly seems to consist of cutting corners at the expense of the customer experience. Meanwhile, the other models are fairly stagnant. At least the "D" part of their R&D seems to be wanting. And for all the hyperbole from the leadership, the "R" is not all that great either. The supposedly "self driving" car cannot even reliably get its windshield wipers to work automatically, it's not particularly good at parking itself, and it seems to be not much closer to autonomous driving (which was supposed to have been achieved in 2017) than 8 years ago. Meanwhile, competitors have released products with actual, if severely geofenced, autonomy. And the robot seems to be pure demoware.

nebula8804 2y ago
>As you seem to agree, the final product seems rather questionable, with incredibly poor reliability and build quality for a $100+K car. I said "The final product might suck". I said suck from the point of view that it is a product design that the customers might not want. You read too much into it. >The innovation and risk taking mainly seems to consist of cutting corners at the expense of the customer experience. Absolute hogwash. Where do I even start? The 48V architecture is going to lead to a much more reliable and efficient wiring loom by way of not having as much wire in the first place which is a constant frustration on some makes (looking at you GM). Not to mention that cost goes back to the customer in the form of savings or that money can be spent elsewhere such as a better interior. Same goes for Gigacasting. Yes I seen the Whistlingdiesel video of the back breaking but all things considered, the castings will lead to more reliable, cheaper and "solid" driving cars. Finally the drive by wire is an interesting risky move but again you are introducing a better driving experience(a big truck can have a turning radius both like a big truck and a tiny city car depending on the context) AND still have cost savings. Theres more but really you can just google the endless amount of articles posted about this. >Meanwhile, the other models are fairly stagnant. Every new model that does come out seems to be a big step change. All they can really do right now is refresh the old models with a facelift. Yes they are hindered by their circumstances. The Model S and X are made in a legacy mess of a factory that should be scrapped. Its been dragging along with really antiquated tech and design. If you read the tealeaves its possible they will abandon California and shift production to Texas after the Model 2. That makes the most sense. Start with a fresh platform. >The supposedly "self driving" car cannot even reliably get its windshield wipers to work automatically, it's not particularly good at parking itself, and it seems to be not much closer to autonomous driving (which was supposed to have been achieved in 2017) than 8 years ago. Meanwhile, competitors have released products with actual, if severely geofenced, autonomy. And the robot seems to be pure demoware. Have you tried these systems? You know its funny, I've been paying good money to rent every single EV for a day or so to do a long road trip with the hopes that I find my next 15+ year car to replace my aging one (Mazda 3). So far every car has disappointed me in various ways but let me tell you, in regards to auto driving, the autopilot on the Tesla is miles ahead of the competition. I wish it was a feature on other cars. My standards are REALLY low. Just be able to drive on the highway and I will take care of the rest. Bluecruise and Supercruise both act like a super nervous driver "ping ponging" back and forth on the highway road. The Tesla is super solid and assertive. The first time it did an automatic lane change, I freaked because after the mess that was bluecruise I didn't trust these systems. Instead it blew me away with how clean and solid the driving was. I was super non trusting but it really impressed me. I really think the Tesla is amazing for highway driving (again only tested highway as I am only looking at bare minimums). The windshield wipers auto starting dont matter to me when the rest of the system works so well. It does not work great other cars I tested anyway (ford and chevy). I mean they are passable and on the Tesla the rest of the car dazzled me so much that I overlooked the wipers. Tesla's crime is that sometimes they try too hard. The other companies don't try hard enough. In my testing the Tesla had an extremely competitive product and at least on the metrics you mentioned they are top tier and the others are not even in the same realm. The tesla fails on other ways in my testing such that it isn't the perfect car for me but it was close to the top.
- l0ng1nu5 2y ago
  Tell me you're heavily invested in Tesla without telling me.
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    I can tell you I have 0 investment in Tesla. In fact I am one of the first subscribers to /r/RealTesla. If you want to be a dumbass and not actually try the car out, then be my guest. I have driven all the competitors cars. Its a pretty decent car all things considered.
    - ycombinatrix 2y ago
      Thoughts on the BMW i4?
      - nebula8804 2y ago
        Quite pricey for what you get but its a BMW, its better put together than most. To be fair, with the number of models coming out I am seeing a lot of familiarity but nothing that truly stands out(I even hinted above that the Tesla is a decent car, not a perfect car: there are problems with it). I am a Mazda fan so I lean towards their design philosophy. Once they release a true competitive EV, I will likely be happy enough to just buy it and be done. But until then it is looking like I am deciding between staying with another gas Mazda for a few years until they release a proper EV or picking something less than ideal and learning to live with it. My comment a few level up talks about buying my next 15+ year car so I am taking this very seriously. No perfect options for me in this transition period where the industry is still moving from mainly Gas to EV.
- microtherion 2y ago
  >The innovation and risk taking mainly seems to consist of cutting corners at the expense of the customer experience. To give a few examples of this: * Wheel stalks are steadily being replaced by touch screen controls, which is less usable and safe. * For gear changes, the choice seems to be between touch screen buttons and manual buttons located on the ceiling, in an unit that appears to be attached literally by duct tape. > The 48V architecture is going to lead to a much more reliable and efficient wiring loom Whatever it may be "going to lead" to, right now, the electrical system in Cybertrucks is massively LESS reliable than the competition, with countless anecdotes of red screens popping up practically before the truck is off the dealer lot. > that cost goes back to the customer in the form of savings or that money can be spent elsewhere such as a better interior. Or, as seems to be the case with Tesla, it stays with the manufacturer, as Cybertrucks are both massively more expensive than initially announced, and equipped with a rather spartan, not to say shabby, interior. > Have you tried these systems? I have a fairly new car, equipped with adaptive cruise control and blind spot warnings. With these, I can easily and confidently do my own lane changes, especially on highways. > in regards to auto driving, the autopilot on the Tesla is miles ahead of the competition That's not what other testers have found: https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/28/how-tesla-bmw-ford-gm-and-mercedes-driver-assist-systems-compare/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/28/how-tesla-bmw-ford-gm-and-... > Tesla's crime is that sometimes they try too hard. I would argue that they oversell the abilities of their system (they used to claim that “The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.”), to entice users into using it outside the conditions at which it is reliable. And they assume absolutely no liability for use under any conditions.

nebula8804 2y ago

>As you seem to agree, the final product seems rather questionable, with incredibly poor reliability and build quality for a $100+K car. I said "The final product might suck". I said suck from the point of view that it is a product design that the customers might not want. You read too much into it. >The innovation and risk taking mainly seems to consist of cutting corners at the expense of the customer experience. Absolute hogwash. Where do I even start? The 48V architecture is going to lead to a much more reliable and efficient wiring loom by way of not having as much wire in the first place which is a constant frustration on some makes (looking at you GM). Not to mention that cost goes back to the customer in the form of savings or that money can be spent elsewhere such as a better interior. Same goes for Gigacasting. Yes I seen the Whistlingdiesel video of the back breaking but all things considered, the castings will lead to more reliable, cheaper and "solid" driving cars. Finally the drive by wire is an interesting risky move but again you are introducing a better driving experience(a big truck can have a turning radius both like a big truck and a tiny city car depending on the context) AND still have cost savings. Theres more but really you can just google the endless amount of articles posted about this. >Meanwhile, the other models are fairly stagnant. Every new model that does come out seems to be a big step change. All they can really do right now is refresh the old models with a facelift. Yes they are hindered by their circumstances. The Model S and X are made in a legacy mess of a factory that should be scrapped. Its been dragging along with really antiquated tech and design. If you read the tealeaves its possible they will abandon California and shift production to Texas after the Model 2. That makes the most sense. Start with a fresh platform. >The supposedly "self driving" car cannot even reliably get its windshield wipers to work automatically, it's not particularly good at parking itself, and it seems to be not much closer to autonomous driving (which was supposed to have been achieved in 2017) than 8 years ago. Meanwhile, competitors have released products with actual, if severely geofenced, autonomy. And the robot seems to be pure demoware. Have you tried these systems? You know its funny, I've been paying good money to rent every single EV for a day or so to do a long road trip with the hopes that I find my next 15+ year car to replace my aging one (Mazda 3). So far every car has disappointed me in various ways but let me tell you, in regards to auto driving, the autopilot on the Tesla is miles ahead of the competition. I wish it was a feature on other cars. My standards are REALLY low. Just be able to drive on the highway and I will take care of the rest. Bluecruise and Supercruise both act like a super nervous driver "ping ponging" back and forth on the highway road. The Tesla is super solid and assertive. The first time it did an automatic lane change, I freaked because after the mess that was bluecruise I didn't trust these systems. Instead it blew me away with how clean and solid the driving was. I was super non trusting but it really impressed me. I really think the Tesla is amazing for highway driving (again only tested highway as I am only looking at bare minimums). The windshield wipers auto starting dont matter to me when the rest of the system works so well. It does not work great other cars I tested anyway (ford and chevy). I mean they are passable and on the Tesla the rest of the car dazzled me so much that I overlooked the wipers. Tesla's crime is that sometimes they try too hard. The other companies don't try hard enough. In my testing the Tesla had an extremely competitive product and at least on the metrics you mentioned they are top tier and the others are not even in the same realm. The tesla fails on other ways in my testing such that it isn't the perfect car for me but it was close to the top.

l0ng1nu5 2y ago
Tell me you're heavily invested in Tesla without telling me.
- nebula8804 2y ago
  I can tell you I have 0 investment in Tesla. In fact I am one of the first subscribers to /r/RealTesla. If you want to be a dumbass and not actually try the car out, then be my guest. I have driven all the competitors cars. Its a pretty decent car all things considered.
  - ycombinatrix 2y ago
    Thoughts on the BMW i4?
    - nebula8804 2y ago
      Quite pricey for what you get but its a BMW, its better put together than most. To be fair, with the number of models coming out I am seeing a lot of familiarity but nothing that truly stands out(I even hinted above that the Tesla is a decent car, not a perfect car: there are problems with it). I am a Mazda fan so I lean towards their design philosophy. Once they release a true competitive EV, I will likely be happy enough to just buy it and be done. But until then it is looking like I am deciding between staying with another gas Mazda for a few years until they release a proper EV or picking something less than ideal and learning to live with it. My comment a few level up talks about buying my next 15+ year car so I am taking this very seriously. No perfect options for me in this transition period where the industry is still moving from mainly Gas to EV.
microtherion 2y ago
>The innovation and risk taking mainly seems to consist of cutting corners at the expense of the customer experience. To give a few examples of this: * Wheel stalks are steadily being replaced by touch screen controls, which is less usable and safe. * For gear changes, the choice seems to be between touch screen buttons and manual buttons located on the ceiling, in an unit that appears to be attached literally by duct tape. > The 48V architecture is going to lead to a much more reliable and efficient wiring loom Whatever it may be "going to lead" to, right now, the electrical system in Cybertrucks is massively LESS reliable than the competition, with countless anecdotes of red screens popping up practically before the truck is off the dealer lot. > that cost goes back to the customer in the form of savings or that money can be spent elsewhere such as a better interior. Or, as seems to be the case with Tesla, it stays with the manufacturer, as Cybertrucks are both massively more expensive than initially announced, and equipped with a rather spartan, not to say shabby, interior. > Have you tried these systems? I have a fairly new car, equipped with adaptive cruise control and blind spot warnings. With these, I can easily and confidently do my own lane changes, especially on highways. > in regards to auto driving, the autopilot on the Tesla is miles ahead of the competition That's not what other testers have found: https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/28/how-tesla-bmw-ford-gm-and-mercedes-driver-assist-systems-compare/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/28/how-tesla-bmw-ford-gm-and-... > Tesla's crime is that sometimes they try too hard. I would argue that they oversell the abilities of their system (they used to claim that “The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.”), to entice users into using it outside the conditions at which it is reliable. And they assume absolutely no liability for use under any conditions.