4 ms·

> you can most likely do more with Apache than you can with Nginx Apache having more features than Nginx is debatable. Apache has probably more unofficial modu

> you can most likely do more with Apache than you can with Nginx Apache having more features than Nginx is debatable. Apache has probably more unofficial modules, but that's irrelevant to the core developpers. With the official modules, I suppose Apache and Nginx more or less on par, but it's hard to compare. Apache has many useless modules in its distribution, e.g. "cern_meta" or "dialup" (for 56K modems!). And some modern features are lacking in Apache: e.g. HTTP3 was an experimental feature of Nginx 4 years ago, it's stable for more than one year, and AFAIK it's not even planned in Apache. > due to its dynamic nature and module system, Nginx has a module system, like Apache. E.g. "ngx_echo" is an unofficial module. > but at the same time that comes with dangers like this. As you noted, the post explains that the problem was not the features surface, it was the legacy code and the technical debt. Nginx is better on these aspects, and Caddy probably even more so.

troyvit 2y ago
> Apache has probably more unofficial modules, but that's irrelevant to the core developpers. In a way it's irrelevant, but in a way not. The myth was that they called it Apache because it's "A patchy" web server.[1] IOW it was designed to use modules to do most of its work. [1] https://dan.hersam.com/2004/07/29/a-patchy-web-server/ https://dan.hersam.com/2004/07/29/a-patchy-web-server/
KronisLV 2y ago
> that's irrelevant to the core developers That's relevant to me! If I want Apache to act as an OpenID connect relying party, for example, I can just use mod_auth_openidc https://github.com/OpenIDC/mod_auth_openidc https://github.com/OpenIDC/mod_auth_openidc installing which is pretty much trivial and requires little work on my part: sudo apt install libapache2-mod-auth-openidc If I want something similar for Nginx, I can take a look here https://openid.net/developers/certified-openid-connect-implementations/ https://openid.net/developers/certified-openid-connect-imple... and realize that I'll need to use OpenResty with LuaRocks, which does add a bit more complexity: https://github.com/zmartzone/lua-resty-openidc https://github.com/zmartzone/lua-resty-openidc luarocks install lua-resty-openidc If I want a basic WAF with something that runs ModSecurity rules, on Apache I can just do: libapache2-mod-security2 and can use the OWASP CRS with no issues: https://owasp.org/www-project-modsecurity-core-rule-set/ https://owasp.org/www-project-modsecurity-core-rule-set/ With Nginx that is no longer properly supported and needed their Plus version anyways: https://docs.nginx.com/nginx-waf/admin-guide/nginx-plus-modsecurity-waf-installation-logging/ https://docs.nginx.com/nginx-waf/admin-guide/nginx-plus-mods... sudo apt-get install nginx-plus-module-modsecurity If I want to do that myself with the regular Nginx, I suddenly have to compile a bunch of stuff myself, which becomes far less pleasant and a bit more long winded: https://www.linode.com/docs/guides/securing-nginx-with-modsecurity/ https://www.linode.com/docs/guides/securing-nginx-with-modse... sudo apt-get install bison build-essential ca-certificates curl dh-autoreconf doxygen \ flex gawk git iputils-ping libcurl4-gnutls-dev libexpat1-dev libgeoip-dev liblmdb-dev \ libpcre3-dev libpcre++-dev libssl-dev libtool libxml2 libxml2-dev libyajl-dev locales \ lua5.3-dev pkg-config wget zlib1g-dev zlibc libxslt libgd-dev sudo apt install git cd /opt && sudo git clone https://github.com/SpiderLabs/ModSecurity cd ModSecurity sudo git submodule init sudo git submodule update sudo ./build.sh sudo ./configure sudo make sudo make install cd /opt && sudo git clone --depth 1 https://github.com/SpiderLabs/ModSecurity-nginx.git cd /opt && sudo wget http://nginx.org/download/nginx-1.14.0.tar.gz sudo tar -xvzmf nginx-1.14.0.tar.gz cd nginx-1.14.0 sudo ./configure --add-dynamic-module=../ModSecurity-nginx <Configure Arguments> sudo make modules sudo mkdir /etc/nginx/modules sudo cp objs/ngx_http_modsecurity_module.so /etc/nginx/modules (old versions in the example, but same principle) At that point I might as well look in the direction of OWASP Coraza: https://coraza.io/ https://coraza.io/ When it comes to ACME and Let's Encrypt, I can use mod_md out of the box with Apache: https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/mod_md.html https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/mod_md.html It's experimental but works nicely in my experience, whereas with Nginx, I have to go with Certbot separately: https://certbot.eff.org/ https://certbot.eff.org/ If I want everything in a single package, I can just use Caddy instead (which is a lovely web server). And that's before I get into weird Nginx behavior when I try to use it with containers, where the whole web server crashes, just because it cannot find the DNS record for a container that hasn't been created yet, along the lines of: nginx: [emerg] host not found in upstream "my-app" where trying to use the suggested fix leads to: nginx: [emerg] "proxy_redirect default" cannot be used with "proxy_pass" directive with variables and using other values often breaks app redirects. Due to these experiences, I'll absolutely say that you can do more with Apache, in ways that will be less of a pain, except for the whole "getting your entire web server hacked" or "brought down by any sizeable amount of traffic" bit. Nginx is really good for hosting static content or acting as a basic reverse proxy, but will be harder to get various bits of the greater ecosystem into it, as opposed to how Apache works. Then again, I fully acknowledge that someone will come along and say "ModSecurity isn't very useful, you should just put your site behind Cloudflare if you need a WAF." or maybe even "Don't handle OpenID Connect in your ingress, even if that means that in the case of 5 APIs you'll need OIDC libraries and configuration for each of them, which will look quite different in various languages." but that doesn't change the fact that some things are just more doable in one option instead of another. OpenResty or Caddy increasingly feel like better choices for a lot of stuff, but not bare Nginx. Use Nginx when you want to handle simple use cases (reverse proxy, serving static files) with good performance, security and a sane configuration format.

troyvit 2y ago

> Apache has probably more unofficial modules, but that's irrelevant to the core developpers. In a way it's irrelevant, but in a way not. The myth was that they called it Apache because it's "A patchy" web server.[1] IOW it was designed to use modules to do most of its work. [1] https://dan.hersam.com/2004/07/29/a-patchy-web-server/ https://dan.hersam.com/2004/07/29/a-patchy-web-server/

KronisLV 2y ago

> that's irrelevant to the core developers That's relevant to me! If I want Apache to act as an OpenID connect relying party, for example, I can just use mod_auth_openidc https://github.com/OpenIDC/mod_auth_openidc https://github.com/OpenIDC/mod_auth_openidc installing which is pretty much trivial and requires little work on my part: sudo apt install libapache2-mod-auth-openidc If I want something similar for Nginx, I can take a look here https://openid.net/developers/certified-openid-connect-implementations/ https://openid.net/developers/certified-openid-connect-imple... and realize that I'll need to use OpenResty with LuaRocks, which does add a bit more complexity: https://github.com/zmartzone/lua-resty-openidc https://github.com/zmartzone/lua-resty-openidc luarocks install lua-resty-openidc If I want a basic WAF with something that runs ModSecurity rules, on Apache I can just do: libapache2-mod-security2 and can use the OWASP CRS with no issues: https://owasp.org/www-project-modsecurity-core-rule-set/ https://owasp.org/www-project-modsecurity-core-rule-set/ With Nginx that is no longer properly supported and needed their Plus version anyways: https://docs.nginx.com/nginx-waf/admin-guide/nginx-plus-modsecurity-waf-installation-logging/ https://docs.nginx.com/nginx-waf/admin-guide/nginx-plus-mods... sudo apt-get install nginx-plus-module-modsecurity If I want to do that myself with the regular Nginx, I suddenly have to compile a bunch of stuff myself, which becomes far less pleasant and a bit more long winded: https://www.linode.com/docs/guides/securing-nginx-with-modsecurity/ https://www.linode.com/docs/guides/securing-nginx-with-modse... sudo apt-get install bison build-essential ca-certificates curl dh-autoreconf doxygen \ flex gawk git iputils-ping libcurl4-gnutls-dev libexpat1-dev libgeoip-dev liblmdb-dev \ libpcre3-dev libpcre++-dev libssl-dev libtool libxml2 libxml2-dev libyajl-dev locales \ lua5.3-dev pkg-config wget zlib1g-dev zlibc libxslt libgd-dev sudo apt install git cd /opt && sudo git clone https://github.com/SpiderLabs/ModSecurity cd ModSecurity sudo git submodule init sudo git submodule update sudo ./build.sh sudo ./configure sudo make sudo make install cd /opt && sudo git clone --depth 1 https://github.com/SpiderLabs/ModSecurity-nginx.git cd /opt && sudo wget http://nginx.org/download/nginx-1.14.0.tar.gz sudo tar -xvzmf nginx-1.14.0.tar.gz cd nginx-1.14.0 sudo ./configure --add-dynamic-module=../ModSecurity-nginx <Configure Arguments> sudo make modules sudo mkdir /etc/nginx/modules sudo cp objs/ngx_http_modsecurity_module.so /etc/nginx/modules (old versions in the example, but same principle) At that point I might as well look in the direction of OWASP Coraza: https://coraza.io/ https://coraza.io/ When it comes to ACME and Let's Encrypt, I can use mod_md out of the box with Apache: https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/mod_md.html https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/mod_md.html It's experimental but works nicely in my experience, whereas with Nginx, I have to go with Certbot separately: https://certbot.eff.org/ https://certbot.eff.org/ If I want everything in a single package, I can just use Caddy instead (which is a lovely web server). And that's before I get into weird Nginx behavior when I try to use it with containers, where the whole web server crashes, just because it cannot find the DNS record for a container that hasn't been created yet, along the lines of: nginx: [emerg] host not found in upstream "my-app" where trying to use the suggested fix leads to: nginx: [emerg] "proxy_redirect default" cannot be used with "proxy_pass" directive with variables and using other values often breaks app redirects. Due to these experiences, I'll absolutely say that you can do more with Apache, in ways that will be less of a pain, except for the whole "getting your entire web server hacked" or "brought down by any sizeable amount of traffic" bit. Nginx is really good for hosting static content or acting as a basic reverse proxy, but will be harder to get various bits of the greater ecosystem into it, as opposed to how Apache works. Then again, I fully acknowledge that someone will come along and say "ModSecurity isn't very useful, you should just put your site behind Cloudflare if you need a WAF." or maybe even "Don't handle OpenID Connect in your ingress, even if that means that in the case of 5 APIs you'll need OIDC libraries and configuration for each of them, which will look quite different in various languages." but that doesn't change the fact that some things are just more doable in one option instead of another. OpenResty or Caddy increasingly feel like better choices for a lot of stuff, but not bare Nginx. Use Nginx when you want to handle simple use cases (reverse proxy, serving static files) with good performance, security and a sane configuration format.