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It is worth pausing for a moment to ask who these policies really favour though. I'd contend that the reason why China blocks Western media access is because th

by roenxi 2y ago

It is worth pausing for a moment to ask who these policies really favour though. I'd contend that the reason why China blocks Western media access is because they want their people to be poorly informed, especially about the weaknesses of the CCP. The policy creates weaknesses in China and makes it easier for them to descend into groupthink. AFAIK they haven't made radical changes to prevent something like the Great Leap recurring, they still have a dangerously centralised system that could cannibalise itself in a 5-year groupthink episode. The reason the West generally doesn't adopt policies like that is because we believe in letting people speak the truth to power and that generally gives us an advantage because we have more overall perspectives and are more likely to organise around the truth. It is challenging to suppress discussions about our own weaknesses and we are aware of where the major problem points are likely to be. Mimicking China's policies restricting access to markets is probably a loss for us. We want asymmetry here, it gives us an advantage. Given that we seem to have/be giving up the industrial edge it is worth holding on to what we have left.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
I haven't heard this articulated yet but it's very convincing. Thanks for sharing
wmf 2y ago
Market access and free speech don't work the same way and I'm not sure why you're conflating them.
- rfoo 2y ago
  Because if not for a free speech issue you can have market access, today.
  - AmericanChopper 2y ago
    Well this absolutely isn't true. Foreign access to the Chinese market is incredibly restricted. Most businesses require a local partner to operate in China, the capital requirements are incredibly high, corruption is through the roof, and when the local partner or the government rip you off, you absolutely will not have equal protection under the law.
    - rfoo 2y ago
      > Most businesses require a local partner to operate in China This, again, is a free speech issue. If your business truly have nothing to do with free speech (sorry, but iCloud and Microsoft 365 all had a free speech issue since they enable people to connect and publish), for example Amazon, no local partner is required. And Amazon has been there since forever. Sometimes, even in a domain with free speech issue, you can have market access to China. For example, Steam is able to sell games in China since many years ago, even with their community page frequently blocked by GFW due to mostly unregulated user-generated content. They certainly can be cut-off: they rely on Alipay and WeChat Pay for payment. But this hasn't happened. Oh, and Epic, GOG too. > the capital requirements are incredibly high, corruption is through the roof, and when the local partner or the government rip you off, you absolutely will not have equal protection under the law. While I indeed don't feel safe about the law protection. I wonder have you actually tried to setup a business in China? Or you are just repeating what you saw on Reddit?
      - AmericanChopper 2y ago
        The restricted and prohibited categories have certainly been liberalised a lot recently, but it definitely hasn’t been trimmed down to only free-speech related categories. https://english.shanghai.gov.cn/en-EstablishaCompany/20231209/e0ff5aa7971c49d1bddf4739401d3f90.html https://english.shanghai.gov.cn/en-EstablishaCompany/2023120... I’m not sure how you’d connect mining, energy, health care, transport, agriculture, or quite a few of those categories to free speech. > While I indeed don't feel safe about the law protection. I wonder have you actually tried to setup a business in China? Yes, I’ve been involved in a couple of WOFEs and quite a few JVs. I’ve worked on and off with companies doing business in China for the past 20 years or so. Access to legal protections has improved somewhat, but it’s been a (sometimes very serious) issue for many of the people I’ve worked with.
        rfoo 2y ago
        Thanks for clarifying. Thought you were talking about FB/Instagram/Tiktok-kind of market access instead of mining.
threatofrain 2y ago
I don't know if it's fair to say that the CCP should be characterized as a weak government, as opposed to the government that pulled off a miracle in modernizing China and competing on the world stage. A lot of people criticize the state of Chinese academics as uncreative and fraudulent, and their industries as copycats, but there might cross a tipping point where China is clearly more innovative than the EU, even as the EU leads the world in democratically-minded regulations and civic rights. There are many world democracies and autocracies. We absolutely should never expect that merely following some first principles of free markets and democracies should determine why some nations rank atop the world.
anal_reactor 2y ago
> The reason the West generally doesn't adopt policies like that is because we believe in letting people speak the truth to power and that generally gives us an advantage because we have more overall perspectives and are more likely to organise around the truth. It is challenging to suppress discussions about our own weaknesses and we are aware of where the major problem points are likely to be. Have you ever talked to an average person
lamontcg 2y ago
>The reason the West generally doesn't adopt policies like that is because we believe in letting people speak the truth to power and that generally gives us an advantage because we have more overall perspectives and are more likely to organise around the truth. It is challenging to suppress discussions about our own weaknesses and we are aware of where the major problem points are likely to be. The reason the West doesn't adopt policies like this is that we run our own propaganda operations against our own citizens. Corporate advertising is an arm of this. The people and organizations with the most wealth and power can buy the biggest megaphones, and our system just lets those viewpoints get massively amplified. We don't need to suppress individual thought and speech, since it largely isn't competitive in the average American's mind.

by roenxi 2y ago

aprilthird2021 2y ago

I haven't heard this articulated yet but it's very convincing. Thanks for sharing

wmf 2y ago

Market access and free speech don't work the same way and I'm not sure why you're conflating them.

rfoo 2y ago
Because if not for a free speech issue you can have market access, today.
- AmericanChopper 2y ago
  Well this absolutely isn't true. Foreign access to the Chinese market is incredibly restricted. Most businesses require a local partner to operate in China, the capital requirements are incredibly high, corruption is through the roof, and when the local partner or the government rip you off, you absolutely will not have equal protection under the law.
  - rfoo 2y ago
    > Most businesses require a local partner to operate in China This, again, is a free speech issue. If your business truly have nothing to do with free speech (sorry, but iCloud and Microsoft 365 all had a free speech issue since they enable people to connect and publish), for example Amazon, no local partner is required. And Amazon has been there since forever. Sometimes, even in a domain with free speech issue, you can have market access to China. For example, Steam is able to sell games in China since many years ago, even with their community page frequently blocked by GFW due to mostly unregulated user-generated content. They certainly can be cut-off: they rely on Alipay and WeChat Pay for payment. But this hasn't happened. Oh, and Epic, GOG too. > the capital requirements are incredibly high, corruption is through the roof, and when the local partner or the government rip you off, you absolutely will not have equal protection under the law. While I indeed don't feel safe about the law protection. I wonder have you actually tried to setup a business in China? Or you are just repeating what you saw on Reddit?
    - AmericanChopper 2y ago
      The restricted and prohibited categories have certainly been liberalised a lot recently, but it definitely hasn’t been trimmed down to only free-speech related categories. https://english.shanghai.gov.cn/en-EstablishaCompany/20231209/e0ff5aa7971c49d1bddf4739401d3f90.html https://english.shanghai.gov.cn/en-EstablishaCompany/2023120... I’m not sure how you’d connect mining, energy, health care, transport, agriculture, or quite a few of those categories to free speech. > While I indeed don't feel safe about the law protection. I wonder have you actually tried to setup a business in China? Yes, I’ve been involved in a couple of WOFEs and quite a few JVs. I’ve worked on and off with companies doing business in China for the past 20 years or so. Access to legal protections has improved somewhat, but it’s been a (sometimes very serious) issue for many of the people I’ve worked with.
      - rfoo 2y ago
        Thanks for clarifying. Thought you were talking about FB/Instagram/Tiktok-kind of market access instead of mining.

threatofrain 2y ago

I don't know if it's fair to say that the CCP should be characterized as a weak government, as opposed to the government that pulled off a miracle in modernizing China and competing on the world stage. A lot of people criticize the state of Chinese academics as uncreative and fraudulent, and their industries as copycats, but there might cross a tipping point where China is clearly more innovative than the EU, even as the EU leads the world in democratically-minded regulations and civic rights. There are many world democracies and autocracies. We absolutely should never expect that merely following some first principles of free markets and democracies should determine why some nations rank atop the world.

anal_reactor 2y ago

lamontcg 2y ago

>The reason the West generally doesn't adopt policies like that is because we believe in letting people speak the truth to power and that generally gives us an advantage because we have more overall perspectives and are more likely to organise around the truth. It is challenging to suppress discussions about our own weaknesses and we are aware of where the major problem points are likely to be. The reason the West doesn't adopt policies like this is that we run our own propaganda operations against our own citizens. Corporate advertising is an arm of this. The people and organizations with the most wealth and power can buy the biggest megaphones, and our system just lets those viewpoints get massively amplified. We don't need to suppress individual thought and speech, since it largely isn't competitive in the average American's mind.