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What an all around terrible situation. The US government has had over two decades to come up with general laws to protect personal information and maintain comp

What an all around terrible situation. The US government has had over two decades to come up with general laws to protect personal information and maintain competition by requiring open interoperability - protecting against all attackers foreign and domestic. Instead, they've sat on their hands while the surveillance industry has been allowed to keep festering, becoming ever more entrenched in Americans' day to day lives while being championed as bastions of "growth" and "innovation". Now that a single foreign company has gained the level of breakout popularity that had already been achieved by 20+ domestic companies, it's time for pearl clutching galore. Every single argument being levied at China and their authoritarianism is a dynamic we've already been suffering from domestic corporations and their authoritarianism. Give me a break! Instead of hanging their hats on this simplistic election year stunt, the government could still create universal regulations that reign in the surveillance industry and give Americans control of their personal data and digital lives, preserving individual liberty rather than trying to mitigate the downstream effects on the collective. Yet apart from essentially toothless regulations by a few states regarding some very specific types of personal data, still crickets. So I guess the lawmakers' concerns still aren't really about protecting Americans, but just making sure nominally American surveillance companies at least get paid when Americans get surveilled and propagandized by foreign powers? It seems like no matter which way this case gets decided and which way the precedent gets set, We the People are set to lose.

mensetmanusman 2y ago
A single foreign company with leadership mandated to have CCP government control.
- mindslight 2y ago
  That was implied, and I don't see how spelling it out changes anything. The nominally domestic corporations aren't exactly sitting around fretting about how to preserve freedom.
AlbertCory 2y ago
The issue is not protection of consumers, worthy as that is as a goal. No one ever said it was. I'd like to see that achieved, too. But your "20+ domestic companies" are not owned by enemy countries. The issue is surveillance by a hostile nation. It's not a "stupid election year stunt," since we have elections every other year, and that rule would preclude any effort to do anything ever.
- mindslight 2y ago
  > The issue is surveillance by a hostile nation Which even without Tiktok, can be straightforwardly done by China (and every other foreign power) paying the domestic surveillance companies for access and influence in straightforward business relationships. And if that gets clamped down on in another decade, then by paying more for not so straightforward business relationships.
  - graeme 2y ago
    This simply does not appear to be happening. China would have to pay Meta and Google a LOT of money to get the same kind of info it gets from TikTok directly. And Meta and Google would report those payments in some way. Could you expand on specifically what you think is happening? Cynicism is easy but it is no substitute for analysis. Disliking domestic surveillance does not make for a foreign nation automatically getting the info.
    - blowsand 2y ago
      That kind of assumes Oracle is lying about the data they host and control for the US instance of TikTok, or that Oracle is unable to secure said data. A few things are curious to me about all of this, which leads me to believe it’s political posturing. The EU has a similar arrangement to the US in that they have an “auditor partner” and host the entirety of the EU infrastructure and services within the EU. The EU is not taking severe business actions in the shadow of undisclosed national security grounds. There’s frequent statements about “massive data collection”. What data? I can only find IP addresses and volunteered contact information being collected. TikTok doesn’t have access to device location data, so IP addresses are the closest there is to geo location. TikTok has said they scrub that when stored - easy to verify. TikTok has given their auditor (at least in the US) access to the recommendation engine algos. I assume that access comes with some ability to confirm what they audit is what’s actually in use, but haven’t seen reporting that confirms it. And finally I don’t understand why so many politicians, including all presidential candidates and a not insignificant number of congressional members use TikTok. Just some of the reasons I think this is more special interest/politically motivated rather than actual national security issues that would be any different than other socials.
stale2002 2y ago
> Now that a single foreign company has gained the level of breakout popularity that had already been achieved by 20+ domestic companies, it's time for pearl clutching galore. Well seeing as this other country is likely to be at war with either us or our allies soon, yes that is a pretty big deal. If a country that we are likely to be at war with has significant influencer over our population, that is indeed a big deal. > So I guess the lawmakers' concerns still aren't really about protecting Americans, Of course it is about protecting Americans. It is about protecting Americans and our allies from the effects of an upcoming war between super powers. That is very much a reasonable concern. > We the People are set to lose. No we don't. If an enemy country is less effectively able to wage war against us or our allies, that would be a win for our country. Us and our allies winning wars is better than us losing them.
- echaozh 2y ago
  > If a country that we are likely to be at war with has significant influencer over our population, that is indeed a big deal. So, how will the war begin? Who will begin it? How long has the US or its allies been planning to start this war?
  - stale2002 2y ago
    > So, how will the war begin? Who will begin it? China will start it when they invade our ally Taiwan. It would also, almost certainly involve a pre-emptive strike from china onto american forces. This would be because China knows that the only way to have even a chance of success is to strike first against the USA. Maybe a politician will be elected in Taiwan that China really doesn't like. Maybe the decades long, existing trends will continue towards the Taiwanese people no longer thinking themselves as having any sort of chinese identity. Or maybe Xi will simply try to distract the population from problems at home with a foolish hopeless war. There are a lot of possibilities! > How long has the US or its allies been planning They aren't planning on starting a war. If China doesn't invade Taiwan, there will be no war. But yes, the USA would absolutely defend Taiwan from an invasion, and already gives Taiwan weapons to do so. I hope that some of the politicians in china will eventually learn how foolish such an invasion will be. Or, perhaps, China will simply saber rattle and do nothing like it has been sabre rattling for decades. China has enough problems as it is, but there is still a chance that they will go off the deep end and invade our allies. If that happens though, the USA will absolutely defend against such an invasion though.
nwav 2y ago
Nobody in government leadership and military command is concerned about authoritarianism and civilian surveillance: These are passionate ethics notions that don't have pragmatic importance. What they care about is giving a major de facto enemy nation (who it's also jointly preparing a conventional and nuclear war against) substantial media production capabilities and backdoor staging areas within its own borders. It's tantamount to granting Germany broadcasting control over most domestic US airwaves prior to 1941. Wars may be decided by the beliefs of the citizens who doomscroll TikTok.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

A single foreign company with leadership mandated to have CCP government control.

mindslight 2y ago
That was implied, and I don't see how spelling it out changes anything. The nominally domestic corporations aren't exactly sitting around fretting about how to preserve freedom.

AlbertCory 2y ago

The issue is not protection of consumers, worthy as that is as a goal. No one ever said it was. I'd like to see that achieved, too. But your "20+ domestic companies" are not owned by enemy countries. The issue is surveillance by a hostile nation. It's not a "stupid election year stunt," since we have elections every other year, and that rule would preclude any effort to do anything ever.

mindslight 2y ago
> The issue is surveillance by a hostile nation Which even without Tiktok, can be straightforwardly done by China (and every other foreign power) paying the domestic surveillance companies for access and influence in straightforward business relationships. And if that gets clamped down on in another decade, then by paying more for not so straightforward business relationships.
- graeme 2y ago
  This simply does not appear to be happening. China would have to pay Meta and Google a LOT of money to get the same kind of info it gets from TikTok directly. And Meta and Google would report those payments in some way. Could you expand on specifically what you think is happening? Cynicism is easy but it is no substitute for analysis. Disliking domestic surveillance does not make for a foreign nation automatically getting the info.
  - blowsand 2y ago
    That kind of assumes Oracle is lying about the data they host and control for the US instance of TikTok, or that Oracle is unable to secure said data. A few things are curious to me about all of this, which leads me to believe it’s political posturing. The EU has a similar arrangement to the US in that they have an “auditor partner” and host the entirety of the EU infrastructure and services within the EU. The EU is not taking severe business actions in the shadow of undisclosed national security grounds. There’s frequent statements about “massive data collection”. What data? I can only find IP addresses and volunteered contact information being collected. TikTok doesn’t have access to device location data, so IP addresses are the closest there is to geo location. TikTok has said they scrub that when stored - easy to verify. TikTok has given their auditor (at least in the US) access to the recommendation engine algos. I assume that access comes with some ability to confirm what they audit is what’s actually in use, but haven’t seen reporting that confirms it. And finally I don’t understand why so many politicians, including all presidential candidates and a not insignificant number of congressional members use TikTok. Just some of the reasons I think this is more special interest/politically motivated rather than actual national security issues that would be any different than other socials.

stale2002 2y ago

> Now that a single foreign company has gained the level of breakout popularity that had already been achieved by 20+ domestic companies, it's time for pearl clutching galore. Well seeing as this other country is likely to be at war with either us or our allies soon, yes that is a pretty big deal. If a country that we are likely to be at war with has significant influencer over our population, that is indeed a big deal. > So I guess the lawmakers' concerns still aren't really about protecting Americans, Of course it is about protecting Americans. It is about protecting Americans and our allies from the effects of an upcoming war between super powers. That is very much a reasonable concern. > We the People are set to lose. No we don't. If an enemy country is less effectively able to wage war against us or our allies, that would be a win for our country. Us and our allies winning wars is better than us losing them.

echaozh 2y ago
> If a country that we are likely to be at war with has significant influencer over our population, that is indeed a big deal. So, how will the war begin? Who will begin it? How long has the US or its allies been planning to start this war?
- stale2002 2y ago
  > So, how will the war begin? Who will begin it? China will start it when they invade our ally Taiwan. It would also, almost certainly involve a pre-emptive strike from china onto american forces. This would be because China knows that the only way to have even a chance of success is to strike first against the USA. Maybe a politician will be elected in Taiwan that China really doesn't like. Maybe the decades long, existing trends will continue towards the Taiwanese people no longer thinking themselves as having any sort of chinese identity. Or maybe Xi will simply try to distract the population from problems at home with a foolish hopeless war. There are a lot of possibilities! > How long has the US or its allies been planning They aren't planning on starting a war. If China doesn't invade Taiwan, there will be no war. But yes, the USA would absolutely defend Taiwan from an invasion, and already gives Taiwan weapons to do so. I hope that some of the politicians in china will eventually learn how foolish such an invasion will be. Or, perhaps, China will simply saber rattle and do nothing like it has been sabre rattling for decades. China has enough problems as it is, but there is still a chance that they will go off the deep end and invade our allies. If that happens though, the USA will absolutely defend against such an invasion though.

nwav 2y ago

Nobody in government leadership and military command is concerned about authoritarianism and civilian surveillance: These are passionate ethics notions that don't have pragmatic importance. What they care about is giving a major de facto enemy nation (who it's also jointly preparing a conventional and nuclear war against) substantial media production capabilities and backdoor staging areas within its own borders. It's tantamount to granting Germany broadcasting control over most domestic US airwaves prior to 1941. Wars may be decided by the beliefs of the citizens who doomscroll TikTok.