6 ms·

Cops should shoulder responsibility and be insured individually. Like docs.

by ushiroda80 2y ago

basementcat 2y ago
Should computer programmers also shoulder responsibility and be insured like doctors?
- mrgoldenbrown 2y ago
  When I was programming as a consultant I had to have insurance for my LLC because some clients required it. It's not that weird an idea.
- indymike 2y ago
  > Should computer programmers also shoulder responsibility and be insured like doctors? Computer programmers aren't authorized and licensed by the government to inflict violence like police officers. Computer programmers are not licensed by the government to prescribe dangerous medications or perform surgeries.
  - toss1 2y ago
    And yet many computer programmers and hardware developers, with or without any kind of license or certification, write or design systems that are critical to life and limb; everything including medical systems, airplane systems, automotive systems including drive-by-wire and 'self-driving, engineering systems for design of life critical structures, etc., etc., etc. It's not all low-consequence or recoverable like front end web dev or accounting software. And conversely, many actions of physicians and cops are inconsequential (while many are also life-or-death).
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      Another problem is how much companies exaggerate the effectiveness of their systems and don't share the false positive rate.
    - zdragnar 2y ago
      To use a similar example, in my state, you can build your own custom car or airplane from scratch and get it approved, no mechanic or engineering license needed. Also, if you aren't working as an engineer for another company but are self employed, it's not a bad idea to get some form of errors and omissions insurance, which is comparable to the malpractice insurance doctors get.
    - ffgjgf1 2y ago
      Ordinary developers are effectively just construction workers with a bit more creative freedom. In al critical systems they are just one part of a chain and all their work has to be verified/validated by at least a few additional actors. A policeman can just decide to randomly murder someone (and often face no repercussions). While a construction worker or a software developer can cause significant harm as well they almost never have near complete autonomy.
    - john_the_writer 2y ago
      I have a note on my desk "If there is a bad tech option." It's a reminder not to get mad when my boss or their boss decides something stupid. Like using GraphQL to upload large amounts of data. Or deciding a 5 person team should be developing micro-services. Or moving everything to tailwinds. As a developer I don't have the power to stop these bad decisions. I just have to stew in them. Holding me responsible for the bad code that gets written to kludge past the bad decisions. Better I suppose than the company that had me build a rails app to move millions of records an hour, hosted on their personal windows laptop. (yeah rails on windows)
      - codetrotter 2y ago
        > Or moving everything to tailwinds. What’s wrong with Tailwind CSS?
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Computer programmers have ruined plenty of lives from the post office scandal to the gambling industry.
    - chipdart 2y ago
      > Computer programmers have ruined plenty of lives from the post office scandal to the gambling industry. That's like saying the cleaning crew at the local police station have ruined plenty of lives due to police brutality.
    - ffgjgf1 2y ago
      It’s almost like blaming Glock for police shootings… It has nothing to do programmers and everything to do with Post Office’s management. If they bought buggy software they had years to seek recourse for that.
    - smegger001 2y ago
      The post office scandal wasn't the programers fault, the fault was on the post for prosecution of individuals for something that was the result of a known bug that they chose to try and cover up instead of getting it fixed. Its also the fault of the law makers for passing law that assumes the computer is always right unless the accused can show otherwise but not letting the accused have access to the program needed.
- IIAOPSW 2y ago
  Possibly, depending on the stakes of the applications they program. Front end web dev? Nah, who gives a shit. Embedded system that's fail deadly? Um, yes.
  - nobody9999 2y ago
    >Front end web dev? Nah, who gives a shit. Embedded system that's fail deadly? Um, yes. More likely that a frayed power cord (or one of a thousand other things) on your laptop will catch fire while you're on the client premise, causing thousands in damages, or that same laptop has some sort of trojan/virus that you spread through the client network, and you're on the hook for remediation. IME, most of the time that's why an independent consultant needs business insurance. The quality of the work is generally handled by the contract. But YMMV.
    - IIAOPSW 2y ago
      This scenario seems borderline Palsgraph v. Long Island Rail Road [1]. There is liability / duty of care / grounds to sue for negligence only when the injury / damages were directly related to the nature of the business, not when there is an incidental freak accident which happens to occur on the premise. What does front end dev work have to do with the statistical random chance that wires somewhere in the building are frayed? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palsgraf_v._Long_Island_Railroad_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palsgraf_v._Long_Island_Railro....
      - nobody9999 2y ago
        General liability and Errors & Omissions[0] insurance are often required by various clients. As I mentioned it could be a thousand different things that might trigger such liability. I'm not telling you (or anyone else) what to do. That said, I'm sure legal fees, if they become necessary, would be much less than insurance premiums. /s [0] https://www.insureon.com/blog/common-consulting-business-insurance-policies-you-may-need https://www.insureon.com/blog/common-consulting-business-ins...
- buildsjets 2y ago
  If they use “engineer” anywhere in their job title, then yes, they should shoulder that responsibility and liability.
- Log_out_ 2y ago
  At the plc level? Yes, and they should and they are. They are also suspects to criminal liability laws.
pyuser583 2y ago
Docs aren’t always insured, and when they are, they aren’t always insured individually.
wordpad25 2y ago
Medical costs and insurance are already absurdly high Police force is the largest expense for local governments, doubling or tripping the costs seems like an unwise and inefficient thing to do for a society
- kiratp 2y ago
  You’re already paying for it via settlements. Requiring officer-named insurance would create immediate pressure to weed out bad behavior and prevent bad cops from being re-hired one county over.
bjelkeman-again 2y ago
Or spend the money on police training instead. More training seems it produces a more competent police force. Not really surprising. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733
- DebtDeflation 2y ago
  Like this? https://abc7ny.com/police-training-new-jersey-street-cop-atlantic-city/14148059/ https://abc7ny.com/police-training-new-jersey-street-cop-atl... There's a similar case unfolding in Massachusetts as well. And Google "killology" if you really want to be disgusted.
- hungie 2y ago
  [dead]

Cops should shoulder responsibility and be insured individually. Like docs.

basementcat 2y ago

Should computer programmers also shoulder responsibility and be insured like doctors?

mrgoldenbrown 2y ago
When I was programming as a consultant I had to have insurance for my LLC because some clients required it. It's not that weird an idea.
indymike 2y ago
> Should computer programmers also shoulder responsibility and be insured like doctors? Computer programmers aren't authorized and licensed by the government to inflict violence like police officers. Computer programmers are not licensed by the government to prescribe dangerous medications or perform surgeries.
- toss1 2y ago
  And yet many computer programmers and hardware developers, with or without any kind of license or certification, write or design systems that are critical to life and limb; everything including medical systems, airplane systems, automotive systems including drive-by-wire and 'self-driving, engineering systems for design of life critical structures, etc., etc., etc. It's not all low-consequence or recoverable like front end web dev or accounting software. And conversely, many actions of physicians and cops are inconsequential (while many are also life-or-death).
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Another problem is how much companies exaggerate the effectiveness of their systems and don't share the false positive rate.
  - zdragnar 2y ago
    To use a similar example, in my state, you can build your own custom car or airplane from scratch and get it approved, no mechanic or engineering license needed. Also, if you aren't working as an engineer for another company but are self employed, it's not a bad idea to get some form of errors and omissions insurance, which is comparable to the malpractice insurance doctors get.
  - ffgjgf1 2y ago
    Ordinary developers are effectively just construction workers with a bit more creative freedom. In al critical systems they are just one part of a chain and all their work has to be verified/validated by at least a few additional actors. A policeman can just decide to randomly murder someone (and often face no repercussions). While a construction worker or a software developer can cause significant harm as well they almost never have near complete autonomy.
  - john_the_writer 2y ago
    I have a note on my desk "If there is a bad tech option." It's a reminder not to get mad when my boss or their boss decides something stupid. Like using GraphQL to upload large amounts of data. Or deciding a 5 person team should be developing micro-services. Or moving everything to tailwinds. As a developer I don't have the power to stop these bad decisions. I just have to stew in them. Holding me responsible for the bad code that gets written to kludge past the bad decisions. Better I suppose than the company that had me build a rails app to move millions of records an hour, hosted on their personal windows laptop. (yeah rails on windows)
    - codetrotter 2y ago
      > Or moving everything to tailwinds. What’s wrong with Tailwind CSS?
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Computer programmers have ruined plenty of lives from the post office scandal to the gambling industry.
  - chipdart 2y ago
    > Computer programmers have ruined plenty of lives from the post office scandal to the gambling industry. That's like saying the cleaning crew at the local police station have ruined plenty of lives due to police brutality.
  - ffgjgf1 2y ago
    It’s almost like blaming Glock for police shootings… It has nothing to do programmers and everything to do with Post Office’s management. If they bought buggy software they had years to seek recourse for that.
  - smegger001 2y ago
    The post office scandal wasn't the programers fault, the fault was on the post for prosecution of individuals for something that was the result of a known bug that they chose to try and cover up instead of getting it fixed. Its also the fault of the law makers for passing law that assumes the computer is always right unless the accused can show otherwise but not letting the accused have access to the program needed.
IIAOPSW 2y ago
Possibly, depending on the stakes of the applications they program. Front end web dev? Nah, who gives a shit. Embedded system that's fail deadly? Um, yes.
- nobody9999 2y ago
  >Front end web dev? Nah, who gives a shit. Embedded system that's fail deadly? Um, yes. More likely that a frayed power cord (or one of a thousand other things) on your laptop will catch fire while you're on the client premise, causing thousands in damages, or that same laptop has some sort of trojan/virus that you spread through the client network, and you're on the hook for remediation. IME, most of the time that's why an independent consultant needs business insurance. The quality of the work is generally handled by the contract. But YMMV.
  - IIAOPSW 2y ago
    This scenario seems borderline Palsgraph v. Long Island Rail Road [1]. There is liability / duty of care / grounds to sue for negligence only when the injury / damages were directly related to the nature of the business, not when there is an incidental freak accident which happens to occur on the premise. What does front end dev work have to do with the statistical random chance that wires somewhere in the building are frayed? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palsgraf_v._Long_Island_Railroad_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palsgraf_v._Long_Island_Railro....
    - nobody9999 2y ago
      General liability and Errors & Omissions[0] insurance are often required by various clients. As I mentioned it could be a thousand different things that might trigger such liability. I'm not telling you (or anyone else) what to do. That said, I'm sure legal fees, if they become necessary, would be much less than insurance premiums. /s [0] https://www.insureon.com/blog/common-consulting-business-insurance-policies-you-may-need https://www.insureon.com/blog/common-consulting-business-ins...
buildsjets 2y ago
If they use “engineer” anywhere in their job title, then yes, they should shoulder that responsibility and liability.
Log_out_ 2y ago
At the plc level? Yes, and they should and they are. They are also suspects to criminal liability laws.

pyuser583 2y ago

Docs aren’t always insured, and when they are, they aren’t always insured individually.

wordpad25 2y ago

Medical costs and insurance are already absurdly high Police force is the largest expense for local governments, doubling or tripping the costs seems like an unwise and inefficient thing to do for a society

kiratp 2y ago
You’re already paying for it via settlements. Requiring officer-named insurance would create immediate pressure to weed out bad behavior and prevent bad cops from being re-hired one county over.

bjelkeman-again 2y ago

Or spend the money on police training instead. More training seems it produces a more competent police force. Not really surprising. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733

DebtDeflation 2y ago
Like this? https://abc7ny.com/police-training-new-jersey-street-cop-atlantic-city/14148059/ https://abc7ny.com/police-training-new-jersey-street-cop-atl... There's a similar case unfolding in Massachusetts as well. And Google "killology" if you really want to be disgusted.
hungie 2y ago
[dead]