3 ms·

> I don't think there is such a thing as truth; at least not for anything that matters to human meaning. 1+1 = 2, the earth is ~80% water, water freezes at 0de

by dgfitz 2y ago

> I don't think there is such a thing as truth; at least not for anything that matters to human meaning. 1+1 = 2, the earth is ~80% water, water freezes at 0degC. What to you mean there aren't truths? Do you mean people form opinions that are wrong? Sure. After sitting back at looking at it, it seems like the big problem is: there are small circles of power that make decisions for the rest of their population under the guise of "best interest of the people" when in reality we all know this isn't true. So these small groups make the little people distracted with things that are very hot-button topics that affect a very small majority of people, by making appeals to emotion on both sides. The small folks eat this up, rip a huge divide, and the small circle people sit back and laugh.

pchristensen 2y ago
Engineers have a hard time with this, because we work in a very 1-0, falsifiable world. When people talk about "truth" with regard to society, government, politics, culture, etc, they're talking about "the story". A story is something that shortcuts discussion, an agreement that two parties don't need to litigate the foundation of. Take the statement "Joe Biden is president of the USA." Many people accept that as truth not requiring further discussion. Many people do not accept that for a variety of reasons. If you're going to make that statement, you need to be prepared that some percentage of those hearing it will object. There are people that will object to "The earth is round." So "post-truth" means that there's not a stable foundation of generally agreed upon facts. The least common denominator for discussion and agreement is smaller.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  > Many people do not accept that for a variety of reasons. That doesn't mean it isn't true about Biden being president. It is a fact, Biden is the sworn-in president of the United States. The part where people don't believe this doesn't make the world post-truth, it just makes some people wrong. I don't care how hard someone believes Biden isn't president, he is. he was sworn in, this is a fact, not an opinion, not a story, not up for debate. The dude was sworn in as the president, he is the president. Was he elected fairly? I think so, some don't. Debate that, sure. If two people on the opposite of that debate try and convince the other, it won't happen. That isn't post-truth, at all. Truth still exists. People don't look for it. I posted this the other day as an example: My Brother-in-Law said recently "The NFL has declining viewership and is losing interest because of all the different platforms they stream to." Which I'm sure he heard/read somewhere, and knowing the fella, had a political slant towards what he was saying. I do not know what the slant was, but I DO know he was wrong. The NFL had one of the best ratings years ever in the 23-24 season. My brother in law is just spouting nonsense. He didn't try and find the truth. We argued for 3 minutes, I pulled up the numbers, and he was wrong. That isn't post-truth, it is willful ignorance, choosing to believe a false narrative because it aligns with core values.
silverquiet 2y ago
Trivial facts, yes. I like "1 second is the time needed for Cesium-133 to vibrate 9,192,631,770 times" or "the metre has been defined as the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299792458 of a second", but who cares if the values were a bit different? What does a life well lived mean? Is there a god or gods? Which one should one worship if so? What does it mean to be a good or bad person? Where does one find meaning? I don't believe there are truthful answers to questions like that, and modernity seems to annihilate the answers that cultures have developed in past. I'm not particularly versed in Nietzsche, but I believe he said it as "God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him."
- dgfitz 2y ago
  You're moving the goalposts. This seems to be happening a lot lately... You posited a lot of philosophical questions, and quoted a famous philosopher. "Philosophy is the study of fundamental questions about the nature of reality, knowledge, and value. These are questions that everyone asks" [0] If you're trying to say "we don't have answers to the philosophical questions of our time" I would agree with you. This would not be a salient point on your end, or even a useful one. This is an example of a well-established... dare I say... fact. [0] https://www.cmich.edu/academics/colleges/liberal-arts-social-sciences/departments/philosophy-anthropology-religion/philosophy/why-study-philosophy#:~:text=Philosophy%20is%20the%20study%20of,bad%20or%20right%20from%20wrong%3F https://www.cmich.edu/academics/colleges/liberal-arts-social...
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    I don't feel like I moved any goalposts, but I'll fully admit that I'm not among the best at using language here. Objective fact may be possible, but truth is a human value and I no longer believe that such a thing exists. It's actually rather simple to get there from just what you said above. If "Philosophy is the study of fundamental questions about the nature of reality, knowledge, and value." and "we don't have answers to the philosophical questions of our time", then it would seem to follow that we cannot agree on the nature of reality which would seem to me to mean that we cannot find a truth that all can agree upon. Believe me, I'm not happy about it either.
lainga 2y ago
Plato has dealt with both of these already in the analogy of the divided line as dianoia (mathematical reasoning) and noesis (understanding). To Plato, facts are likenesses of the truth, just as an imagined object is a likeness of a real object. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy_of_the_divided_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy_of_the_divided_line

by dgfitz 2y ago

pchristensen 2y ago

Engineers have a hard time with this, because we work in a very 1-0, falsifiable world. When people talk about "truth" with regard to society, government, politics, culture, etc, they're talking about "the story". A story is something that shortcuts discussion, an agreement that two parties don't need to litigate the foundation of. Take the statement "Joe Biden is president of the USA." Many people accept that as truth not requiring further discussion. Many people do not accept that for a variety of reasons. If you're going to make that statement, you need to be prepared that some percentage of those hearing it will object. There are people that will object to "The earth is round." So "post-truth" means that there's not a stable foundation of generally agreed upon facts. The least common denominator for discussion and agreement is smaller.

dgfitz 2y ago
> Many people do not accept that for a variety of reasons. That doesn't mean it isn't true about Biden being president. It is a fact, Biden is the sworn-in president of the United States. The part where people don't believe this doesn't make the world post-truth, it just makes some people wrong. I don't care how hard someone believes Biden isn't president, he is. he was sworn in, this is a fact, not an opinion, not a story, not up for debate. The dude was sworn in as the president, he is the president. Was he elected fairly? I think so, some don't. Debate that, sure. If two people on the opposite of that debate try and convince the other, it won't happen. That isn't post-truth, at all. Truth still exists. People don't look for it. I posted this the other day as an example: My Brother-in-Law said recently "The NFL has declining viewership and is losing interest because of all the different platforms they stream to." Which I'm sure he heard/read somewhere, and knowing the fella, had a political slant towards what he was saying. I do not know what the slant was, but I DO know he was wrong. The NFL had one of the best ratings years ever in the 23-24 season. My brother in law is just spouting nonsense. He didn't try and find the truth. We argued for 3 minutes, I pulled up the numbers, and he was wrong. That isn't post-truth, it is willful ignorance, choosing to believe a false narrative because it aligns with core values.

silverquiet 2y ago

Trivial facts, yes. I like "1 second is the time needed for Cesium-133 to vibrate 9,192,631,770 times" or "the metre has been defined as the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299792458 of a second", but who cares if the values were a bit different? What does a life well lived mean? Is there a god or gods? Which one should one worship if so? What does it mean to be a good or bad person? Where does one find meaning? I don't believe there are truthful answers to questions like that, and modernity seems to annihilate the answers that cultures have developed in past. I'm not particularly versed in Nietzsche, but I believe he said it as "God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him."

dgfitz 2y ago
You're moving the goalposts. This seems to be happening a lot lately... You posited a lot of philosophical questions, and quoted a famous philosopher. "Philosophy is the study of fundamental questions about the nature of reality, knowledge, and value. These are questions that everyone asks" [0] If you're trying to say "we don't have answers to the philosophical questions of our time" I would agree with you. This would not be a salient point on your end, or even a useful one. This is an example of a well-established... dare I say... fact. [0] https://www.cmich.edu/academics/colleges/liberal-arts-social-sciences/departments/philosophy-anthropology-religion/philosophy/why-study-philosophy#:~:text=Philosophy%20is%20the%20study%20of,bad%20or%20right%20from%20wrong%3F https://www.cmich.edu/academics/colleges/liberal-arts-social...
- silverquiet 2y ago
  I don't feel like I moved any goalposts, but I'll fully admit that I'm not among the best at using language here. Objective fact may be possible, but truth is a human value and I no longer believe that such a thing exists. It's actually rather simple to get there from just what you said above. If "Philosophy is the study of fundamental questions about the nature of reality, knowledge, and value." and "we don't have answers to the philosophical questions of our time", then it would seem to follow that we cannot agree on the nature of reality which would seem to me to mean that we cannot find a truth that all can agree upon. Believe me, I'm not happy about it either.

lainga 2y ago

Plato has dealt with both of these already in the analogy of the divided line as dianoia (mathematical reasoning) and noesis (understanding). To Plato, facts are likenesses of the truth, just as an imagined object is a likeness of a real object. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy_of_the_divided_line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy_of_the_divided_line