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Heh, Safari may lack some APIs, but it’s irrelevant for 95% of apps including Patreon. It’s not like Patreon would be unusable on iOS without an app.

by pjerem 2y ago

marticode 2y ago
I still remember when they refused to support forms constraints (there was the JS API, but not the UI designed to show users what they got wrong with their form, so you had to polyfill that specifically for Safari). Forms are pretty darn important to 99.9% of web apps, this felt like active sabotage.
meiraleal 2y ago
It is baffling how some random people will come to Apple's defense from the most unimaginable angles. "Safari is lacking but should be enough for 95% of the apps". Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%?
- troupo 2y ago
  > Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%? No. We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. And for hundreds of thousands of apps that people could implement using web tech, but don't want to for various reasons, both big (too many workarounds) to small (abysmal performance for the simplest tasks)
  - KingMob 2y ago
    > We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. These are not disconnected, though. The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases, but Apple wouldn't be able to collect 30% of the profits. Safari was a laggard for many years while the App Store was being entrenched.
    - troupo 2y ago
      > The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases No, it couldn't > but Apple Apple has nothing to do with the fact that the web can barely render a page of static text and images without stutter. Almost every single app made with web technologies is a slow bloated abomination barely capable of doing a few primitive things right. And those that aren't have insane amounts of effort poured into them. If you believe that Apple has something to do with it, why isn't there a flood of amazing smooth native-like apps on Android where none of the real or perceived limitations exist? Why is there a Google Play store with hundreds of thousands of apps?
      - meiraleal 2y ago
        oh you think your shitty swift app is any better?
        troupo 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41239006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41239006
      - lenkite 2y ago
        There are a truck load of crappy SwiftUI apps that make your average bloated web app look like lean, FTL starships. They stutter so much with broken animations that you are afraid that your phone had a stroke.
        troupo 2y ago
        And crappy Swift apps invalidate my point how exactly? Note how you addressed nothing I wrote.
        meiraleal 2y ago
        Your argument that almost every web app is bloated is dumb. Where did you get that data from? Based on what you say the native apps aren't as bloated? You are talking out of your A.
- pjerem 2y ago
  I’m really not defending Apple here. I’ve always been pretty vocal against Apple practices, especially with the App Store policies. But I do think that the situation we are in where any company have to develop an application when the web does it nice enough (and it’s especially true for products such as Patreon) is pretty ridiculous. Of all the companies around, Patreon is one who could easily avoid this in app fee nonsense just by avoiding having an app in the first place (or at least having an app for subscribers, maybe the app is useful for content creators). I’d totally prefer a situation where Apple wouldn’t act like dicks but by accepting this situation, Patreon is just legitimizing Apple behavior.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    How can you be vocal against App Store and in favor of Web and Apple's effort on that front while Apple/Safari blocks multiple attempts of making the Web a good platform for web Apps. That's the biggest complain of every web app developer but you are saying that Safari is already great for that while excusing Apple's behavior. Wow.
    - pjerem 2y ago
      Please quote where I excused Apple’s behavior and where I said that safari didn’t lag behind other browsers. I just said that Patreon ran fine on Safari and so that Safari had enough features / API to do the job for Patreon. I didn’t say anything about safari being a good platform for web apps in general and I don’t understand where you read that in my comment. So let me repeat my opinion : yes Safari lacks a lot of features and APIs to be a good application platform. Yes, Apple is a shitty company especially when it comes to app policies. But, in the current state of affairs, Safari is enough for simple applications/websites such as Patreon.
espadrine 2y ago
The problem is cultural: a growing population do not know what the Web is. When they are asked to search for a website, they open the app store and search there. If there is no result, they give up.
- jliptzin 2y ago
  Then make an app whose sole purpose is to open a website in the browser
  - inanutshellus 2y ago
    It wouldnt matter that your app is just a web view of your website, as accepting payments that bypass the ios payment system gets your app banned. ... Thus the conversation in the first place.
    - BobaFloutist 2y ago
      But browsers, which are apps, can accept payments that bypass the ios payment system, no?
      - lenkite 2y ago
        Won't be surprised if Apple blocks this too or redirects URLs to open the app in the app store.
  - espadrine 2y ago
    That is disallowed by section 4.2 of the App Review Guidelines[0]: > Your app should include features, content, and UI that elevate it beyond a repackaged website. [0]: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
    - user_7832 2y ago
      The irony of so many apps being electron wrappers is apparently lost on Apple. I'll just be happy if Teams could stop eating battery for once. Though honestly jokes aside, this rule still doesn't make a lot of sense (to me). Webapps are capable enough. What does Uber's app, or the Google app do, that's different from their websites? Heck, even Apple's own notes app is simple enough that I'm fairly sure you could make a webapp out of it. I think tasks.org already has such a webapp/website.

Heh, Safari may lack some APIs, but it’s irrelevant for 95% of apps including Patreon. It’s not like Patreon would be unusable on iOS without an app.

by pjerem 2y ago

Heh, Safari may lack some APIs, but it’s irrelevant for 95% of apps including Patreon. It’s not like Patreon would be unusable on iOS without an app.

marticode 2y ago

I still remember when they refused to support forms constraints (there was the JS API, but not the UI designed to show users what they got wrong with their form, so you had to polyfill that specifically for Safari). Forms are pretty darn important to 99.9% of web apps, this felt like active sabotage.

meiraleal 2y ago

It is baffling how some random people will come to Apple's defense from the most unimaginable angles. "Safari is lacking but should be enough for 95% of the apps". Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%?

troupo 2y ago
> Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%? No. We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. And for hundreds of thousands of apps that people could implement using web tech, but don't want to for various reasons, both big (too many workarounds) to small (abysmal performance for the simplest tasks)
- KingMob 2y ago
  > We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. These are not disconnected, though. The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases, but Apple wouldn't be able to collect 30% of the profits. Safari was a laggard for many years while the App Store was being entrenched.
  - troupo 2y ago
    > The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases No, it couldn't > but Apple Apple has nothing to do with the fact that the web can barely render a page of static text and images without stutter. Almost every single app made with web technologies is a slow bloated abomination barely capable of doing a few primitive things right. And those that aren't have insane amounts of effort poured into them. If you believe that Apple has something to do with it, why isn't there a flood of amazing smooth native-like apps on Android where none of the real or perceived limitations exist? Why is there a Google Play store with hundreds of thousands of apps?
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      oh you think your shitty swift app is any better?
      - troupo 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41239006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41239006
    - lenkite 2y ago
      There are a truck load of crappy SwiftUI apps that make your average bloated web app look like lean, FTL starships. They stutter so much with broken animations that you are afraid that your phone had a stroke.
      - troupo 2y ago
        And crappy Swift apps invalidate my point how exactly? Note how you addressed nothing I wrote.
        meiraleal 2y ago
        Your argument that almost every web app is bloated is dumb. Where did you get that data from? Based on what you say the native apps aren't as bloated? You are talking out of your A.
pjerem 2y ago
I’m really not defending Apple here. I’ve always been pretty vocal against Apple practices, especially with the App Store policies. But I do think that the situation we are in where any company have to develop an application when the web does it nice enough (and it’s especially true for products such as Patreon) is pretty ridiculous. Of all the companies around, Patreon is one who could easily avoid this in app fee nonsense just by avoiding having an app in the first place (or at least having an app for subscribers, maybe the app is useful for content creators). I’d totally prefer a situation where Apple wouldn’t act like dicks but by accepting this situation, Patreon is just legitimizing Apple behavior.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  How can you be vocal against App Store and in favor of Web and Apple's effort on that front while Apple/Safari blocks multiple attempts of making the Web a good platform for web Apps. That's the biggest complain of every web app developer but you are saying that Safari is already great for that while excusing Apple's behavior. Wow.
  - pjerem 2y ago
    Please quote where I excused Apple’s behavior and where I said that safari didn’t lag behind other browsers. I just said that Patreon ran fine on Safari and so that Safari had enough features / API to do the job for Patreon. I didn’t say anything about safari being a good platform for web apps in general and I don’t understand where you read that in my comment. So let me repeat my opinion : yes Safari lacks a lot of features and APIs to be a good application platform. Yes, Apple is a shitty company especially when it comes to app policies. But, in the current state of affairs, Safari is enough for simple applications/websites such as Patreon.

espadrine 2y ago

The problem is cultural: a growing population do not know what the Web is. When they are asked to search for a website, they open the app store and search there. If there is no result, they give up.

jliptzin 2y ago
Then make an app whose sole purpose is to open a website in the browser
- inanutshellus 2y ago
  It wouldnt matter that your app is just a web view of your website, as accepting payments that bypass the ios payment system gets your app banned. ... Thus the conversation in the first place.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    But browsers, which are apps, can accept payments that bypass the ios payment system, no?
    - lenkite 2y ago
      Won't be surprised if Apple blocks this too or redirects URLs to open the app in the app store.
- espadrine 2y ago
  That is disallowed by section 4.2 of the App Review Guidelines[0]: > Your app should include features, content, and UI that elevate it beyond a repackaged website. [0]: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
  - user_7832 2y ago
    The irony of so many apps being electron wrappers is apparently lost on Apple. I'll just be happy if Teams could stop eating battery for once. Though honestly jokes aside, this rule still doesn't make a lot of sense (to me). Webapps are capable enough. What does Uber's app, or the Google app do, that's different from their websites? Heck, even Apple's own notes app is simple enough that I'm fairly sure you could make a webapp out of it. I think tasks.org already has such a webapp/website.