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You might also find this interesting: a post I wrote on the topic last year: From Gothic Invaders to Mall Goths. How an ancient Germanic tribe gave its name to

You might also find this interesting: a post I wrote on the topic last year: From Gothic Invaders to Mall Goths. How an ancient Germanic tribe gave its name to a modern subculture. https://onthearts.com/p/from-gothic-invaders-to-mall-goths https://onthearts.com/p/from-gothic-invaders-to-mall-goths

defrost 2y ago
That's a long arc with a barely addressed tail end. I read somewhere within the past few months an entertaining take on how Goth culture of Bauhaus and the 80s has little to do with Hot Topic mall rat goth of the 90's and even less with recent naughties Goths of Tik-Tok .. less and less substance, more and more appearence. In the Venn diagram of Goth|not-Goth there's more than a few lucky trifecta's, eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpCyNQ80JoE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpCyNQ80JoE
- keiferski 2y ago
  Eh it’s a big topic and the post was already getting too long. You are right that mall goths are less interested in the “ethos” of the previous subculture and more interested in the surface appearance, but I think that probably applies to every subculture of modern times.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    Was there a previous wave of old-school furries of which I'm unaware? (unfortunately, just about the time it becomes much easier to tell a shaggy dog story that ends with the phrase "don't you hurry with the furry with the syringe on top", it becomes much harder to expect anyone to understand the spoonerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE ) EDIT: well, yes, of course: Disney, Avery, Warner, etc. animators. but other than them, [and other than Ovid?] have there ever been any old-school furries?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- bazoom42 2y ago
  What is “substance”? Since Walpole built a fake gothic caste, it have always been about appearance.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Fake? !! If you kick it, does not your toe swell? * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone To address your point fairly, the Goths of the 80s had their music and their appearance whereas the Goths of Tik-Tok have their music (that music of the 80s) and mostly their appearance ... ergo more of the same with less and less that's original.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      I don't recall mall rat Goths having combine harvesters (except it looks more like a sprayer to me?), so that's something the Goths of Tik-Tok have going for them, which is nice.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  Naughties 2000-2009?
  - defrost 2y ago
    I'm being slack .. post 2000, the years with more noughts than the 1960|70|80|90s Strictly speaking, you'd be correct.
- jart 2y ago
  So what. In order to be a truly authentic goth you'd need to sack the Vatican.
kevinh456 2y ago
They say fashion goes in cycles. That cycle is ~ 20 years to start and ~ 30!years to complete, the approximate time it takes for a generation of teenagers to raid their parents old shit. Which just so happen to hit the second hand market around the same time. 1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. Emo and goth cycles. 1964 -> 1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. First, second, third, and… fourth? waves of ska.
- keiferski 2y ago
  That’s one thing I came away with from studying this topic - classicism vs. the gothic (and variants of them like order vs. chaos, minimal vs. maximal, etc.) seem to alternate over and over throughout time.
- card_zero 2y ago
  If everything is provided digitally as a service, there won't be old shit lying around to raid, and it won't be sold second hand.
bazoom42 2y ago
Doesn’t really connect the dots. For example suggest the Gothic disappers beween Victorianism and The Doors, completely missing the horror movies which was a major influence on the aesthetic.
- keiferski 2y ago
  I didn’t suggest that the Gothic disappeared between the Victorians and The Doors: While the Gothic didn’t disappear entirely after the Victorian Era, it was largely pushed aside by Modernism and related movements for most of the early 20th century. It was only by the 1960s that the Gothic ideal began to make a resurgence – this time via music. This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time. But yes, films were an influence as well. I couldn’t include every influence on the genre as the post would be novel length. The ending part is a bit condensed as a result as I wasn’t trying to explain the intricacies of modern goth culture, just show how the word traveled through time. It’s been awhile since I wrote the post but IIRC the films didn’t play a direct role in transferring the use of the word gothic itself, as they were primarily referred to as horror films.
  - bazoom42 2y ago
    > This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time. Not sure what “standard history” you are relying on, but gothic horror was a major influence on movies (and other popular media like comics). Modernism is a somewat nebolous term, but German expressionism seem to be generally categorized as modernism, even when the movies are clearly gothic horror (eg Nosferatu is heavily based on Dracula, they just couldn’t secure the rights to the novel, so changed the name).
    - keiferski 2y ago
      Sure, modernism could include German Expressionism, but I had in mind Art Deco, Bauhaus and Modernist architecture, along with visual art movements like Dada, De Stiji, Cubism, etc. - the things that are typically referred to by the word modernist. The qualities these things have in common tend to be distinctly different from the qualities that the Gothic has usually had. According to historian Roger Griffin, modernism can be defined as a broad cultural, social, or political initiative sustained by the ethos of "the temporality of the new". Griffin believed that modernism aspired to restore a "sense of sublime order and purpose to the contemporary world, thereby counteracting the (perceived) erosion of an overarching 'nomos', or 'sacred canopy', under the fragmenting and secularizing impact of modernity". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism This focus on the new and future is definitely not something Gothic does, which is traditionally very focused on the past. In architecture, for example, the Gothic lost most of its influence: New architectural movements, sometimes related, as in the Arts and Crafts movement, and sometimes in outright opposition, such as Modernism, gained ground, and by the 1930s the architecture of the Victorian era was generally condemned or ignored. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Revival_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Revival_architecture And again, the purpose of the article was to trace the term gothic through history, not to explain the influence of the Gothic in toto. These films may have been influential, but they were based on already written Gothic works, and they weren't dominant in the way Gothic architecture or literature were in the Victorian era. Gothic in the 20th century was more of an influence on other art movements (including German Expressionism), not a fully-fledged art movement itself, as it had been in the past. Overall I agree that a line about the films would have been good to add, but I don't think it was necessarily essential to tracing the word gothic through time. The term was applied to music because of the location "in the gloomy vaulted wine cellar of the Delmonico hotel, not because of a reference to the films. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock#Characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock#Characteristics I'm not sure why this single point "doesn’t really connect the dots" for you, considering that the rest of the post covers dozens of other significant influences over two millenia.

defrost 2y ago

That's a long arc with a barely addressed tail end. I read somewhere within the past few months an entertaining take on how Goth culture of Bauhaus and the 80s has little to do with Hot Topic mall rat goth of the 90's and even less with recent naughties Goths of Tik-Tok .. less and less substance, more and more appearence. In the Venn diagram of Goth|not-Goth there's more than a few lucky trifecta's, eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpCyNQ80JoE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpCyNQ80JoE

keiferski 2y ago
Eh it’s a big topic and the post was already getting too long. You are right that mall goths are less interested in the “ethos” of the previous subculture and more interested in the surface appearance, but I think that probably applies to every subculture of modern times.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  Was there a previous wave of old-school furries of which I'm unaware? (unfortunately, just about the time it becomes much easier to tell a shaggy dog story that ends with the phrase "don't you hurry with the furry with the syringe on top", it becomes much harder to expect anyone to understand the spoonerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE ) EDIT: well, yes, of course: Disney, Avery, Warner, etc. animators. but other than them, [and other than Ovid?] have there ever been any old-school furries?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
bazoom42 2y ago
What is “substance”? Since Walpole built a fake gothic caste, it have always been about appearance.
- defrost 2y ago
  Fake? !! If you kick it, does not your toe swell? * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone To address your point fairly, the Goths of the 80s had their music and their appearance whereas the Goths of Tik-Tok have their music (that music of the 80s) and mostly their appearance ... ergo more of the same with less and less that's original.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    I don't recall mall rat Goths having combine harvesters (except it looks more like a sprayer to me?), so that's something the Goths of Tik-Tok have going for them, which is nice.
actionfromafar 2y ago
Naughties 2000-2009?
- defrost 2y ago
  I'm being slack .. post 2000, the years with more noughts than the 1960|70|80|90s Strictly speaking, you'd be correct.
jart 2y ago
So what. In order to be a truly authentic goth you'd need to sack the Vatican.

kevinh456 2y ago

They say fashion goes in cycles. That cycle is ~ 20 years to start and ~ 30!years to complete, the approximate time it takes for a generation of teenagers to raid their parents old shit. Which just so happen to hit the second hand market around the same time. 1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. Emo and goth cycles. 1964 -> 1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. First, second, third, and… fourth? waves of ska.

keiferski 2y ago
That’s one thing I came away with from studying this topic - classicism vs. the gothic (and variants of them like order vs. chaos, minimal vs. maximal, etc.) seem to alternate over and over throughout time.
card_zero 2y ago
If everything is provided digitally as a service, there won't be old shit lying around to raid, and it won't be sold second hand.

bazoom42 2y ago

Doesn’t really connect the dots. For example suggest the Gothic disappers beween Victorianism and The Doors, completely missing the horror movies which was a major influence on the aesthetic.

keiferski 2y ago
I didn’t suggest that the Gothic disappeared between the Victorians and The Doors: While the Gothic didn’t disappear entirely after the Victorian Era, it was largely pushed aside by Modernism and related movements for most of the early 20th century. It was only by the 1960s that the Gothic ideal began to make a resurgence – this time via music. This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time. But yes, films were an influence as well. I couldn’t include every influence on the genre as the post would be novel length. The ending part is a bit condensed as a result as I wasn’t trying to explain the intricacies of modern goth culture, just show how the word traveled through time. It’s been awhile since I wrote the post but IIRC the films didn’t play a direct role in transferring the use of the word gothic itself, as they were primarily referred to as horror films.
- bazoom42 2y ago
  > This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time. Not sure what “standard history” you are relying on, but gothic horror was a major influence on movies (and other popular media like comics). Modernism is a somewat nebolous term, but German expressionism seem to be generally categorized as modernism, even when the movies are clearly gothic horror (eg Nosferatu is heavily based on Dracula, they just couldn’t secure the rights to the novel, so changed the name).
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Sure, modernism could include German Expressionism, but I had in mind Art Deco, Bauhaus and Modernist architecture, along with visual art movements like Dada, De Stiji, Cubism, etc. - the things that are typically referred to by the word modernist. The qualities these things have in common tend to be distinctly different from the qualities that the Gothic has usually had. According to historian Roger Griffin, modernism can be defined as a broad cultural, social, or political initiative sustained by the ethos of "the temporality of the new". Griffin believed that modernism aspired to restore a "sense of sublime order and purpose to the contemporary world, thereby counteracting the (perceived) erosion of an overarching 'nomos', or 'sacred canopy', under the fragmenting and secularizing impact of modernity". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism This focus on the new and future is definitely not something Gothic does, which is traditionally very focused on the past. In architecture, for example, the Gothic lost most of its influence: New architectural movements, sometimes related, as in the Arts and Crafts movement, and sometimes in outright opposition, such as Modernism, gained ground, and by the 1930s the architecture of the Victorian era was generally condemned or ignored. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Revival_architecture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Revival_architecture And again, the purpose of the article was to trace the term gothic through history, not to explain the influence of the Gothic in toto. These films may have been influential, but they were based on already written Gothic works, and they weren't dominant in the way Gothic architecture or literature were in the Victorian era. Gothic in the 20th century was more of an influence on other art movements (including German Expressionism), not a fully-fledged art movement itself, as it had been in the past. Overall I agree that a line about the films would have been good to add, but I don't think it was necessarily essential to tracing the word gothic through time. The term was applied to music because of the location "in the gloomy vaulted wine cellar of the Delmonico hotel, not because of a reference to the films. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock#Characteristics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock#Characteristics I'm not sure why this single point "doesn’t really connect the dots" for you, considering that the rest of the post covers dozens of other significant influences over two millenia.