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Heh. I didn't even know there was a Patreon app. There is an issue though. A lot of people (not me) use phone as their main computing device. And Apple is well

Heh. I didn't even know there was a Patreon app. There is an issue though. A lot of people (not me) use phone as their main computing device. And Apple is well known for keeping web app experience subpar compared to native app experience. Safari is lagging behind all the other browsers regarding modern APIs support. Bugs are not getting patched for years. At the same time other web rendering engines are not allowed on the main official app store. The other app stores are hard to get to and I consider them non-existent for regular users. So, platform developers have to take iOS support very seriously or miss a lot of profit.

azinman2 2y ago
Is Chrome on Android complete in terms of modern APIs? If so, do people use it instead of apps on Android?
- inanutshellus 2y ago
  In this context, Chrome is just a browser, just like Safari is on iOS. The "problem" is less-technically-savvy folks (especially -- and ironically -- tech native youth) don't understand/care about the distinction between Apps vs a Website Bookmark/Shortcut. That Patreon is even considering keeping the app is proof of this. Depending on how overt Patreon's app is about ringing the alarm bells (imagine a "JUST MAKE A SHORTCUT and save 30% on everything!!!" popup) would just get them banned too, no doubt. Presumably criticizing Apple is a bannable offense.
  - krger 2y ago
    >That Patreon is even considering keeping the app is proof of this. No, that Patreon is "even considering" keeping the app is evidence that they get more valuable information about users and their habits from the app than they could from a website.
    - inanutshellus 2y ago
      That's not disagreeing with me, but instead adding yet another argument for users to avoid as many Apps as they can. If the experience in an app is form, graphs, and payments... use the website. It apparently saves that company 30% and, to your point, keeps your computing habits yours.
    - meowster 2y ago
      I doubt it. What evidence supports your claim? I took a look at the Patreon app permissions in Android, and it doesn't even ask for location which is probably the most valuable thing about users they could ask for.
      - inanutshellus 2y ago
        The broad argument holds, regardless of what Patreon itself does right now. Facts are simple here: Apps grant easier access your habits and identity as compared to a relatively-sandboxed browser.
- microflash 2y ago
  I use Firefox on Android (which I can't on iOS) and I use it instead of apps wherever I can. Why should I install an app for every single thing?
  - azinman2 2y ago
    That’s fine as an anecdata of n=1. But it doesn’t seem that apps are unpopular on Android, where as the GP seemed to suggest that Safari was the reason for app popularity. That just doesn’t seem to be true, given on Android we don’t see a large inversion.
raxxorraxor 2y ago
They can take their time, although they seem to implement the worst parts of it. Remote attestation and manifest v3. Who else could ever live without these features?
pjerem 2y ago
Heh, Safari may lack some APIs, but it’s irrelevant for 95% of apps including Patreon. It’s not like Patreon would be unusable on iOS without an app.
- marticode 2y ago
  I still remember when they refused to support forms constraints (there was the JS API, but not the UI designed to show users what they got wrong with their form, so you had to polyfill that specifically for Safari). Forms are pretty darn important to 99.9% of web apps, this felt like active sabotage.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  It is baffling how some random people will come to Apple's defense from the most unimaginable angles. "Safari is lacking but should be enough for 95% of the apps". Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%?
  - troupo 2y ago
    > Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%? No. We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. And for hundreds of thousands of apps that people could implement using web tech, but don't want to for various reasons, both big (too many workarounds) to small (abysmal performance for the simplest tasks)
    - KingMob 2y ago
      > We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. These are not disconnected, though. The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases, but Apple wouldn't be able to collect 30% of the profits. Safari was a laggard for many years while the App Store was being entrenched.
      - troupo 2y ago
        > The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases No, it couldn't > but Apple Apple has nothing to do with the fact that the web can barely render a page of static text and images without stutter. Almost every single app made with web technologies is a slow bloated abomination barely capable of doing a few primitive things right. And those that aren't have insane amounts of effort poured into them. If you believe that Apple has something to do with it, why isn't there a flood of amazing smooth native-like apps on Android where none of the real or perceived limitations exist? Why is there a Google Play store with hundreds of thousands of apps?
deanishe 2y ago
> Apple is well known for keeping web app experience subpar compared to native app experience. Web apps are subpar compared to native apps. I'm not surprised Apple is in no hurry to further enable lowest-common-denominator shovelware. Electron is a plague on macOS.

azinman2 2y ago

Is Chrome on Android complete in terms of modern APIs? If so, do people use it instead of apps on Android?

inanutshellus 2y ago
In this context, Chrome is just a browser, just like Safari is on iOS. The "problem" is less-technically-savvy folks (especially -- and ironically -- tech native youth) don't understand/care about the distinction between Apps vs a Website Bookmark/Shortcut. That Patreon is even considering keeping the app is proof of this. Depending on how overt Patreon's app is about ringing the alarm bells (imagine a "JUST MAKE A SHORTCUT and save 30% on everything!!!" popup) would just get them banned too, no doubt. Presumably criticizing Apple is a bannable offense.
- krger 2y ago
  >That Patreon is even considering keeping the app is proof of this. No, that Patreon is "even considering" keeping the app is evidence that they get more valuable information about users and their habits from the app than they could from a website.
  - inanutshellus 2y ago
    That's not disagreeing with me, but instead adding yet another argument for users to avoid as many Apps as they can. If the experience in an app is form, graphs, and payments... use the website. It apparently saves that company 30% and, to your point, keeps your computing habits yours.
  - meowster 2y ago
    I doubt it. What evidence supports your claim? I took a look at the Patreon app permissions in Android, and it doesn't even ask for location which is probably the most valuable thing about users they could ask for.
    - inanutshellus 2y ago
      The broad argument holds, regardless of what Patreon itself does right now. Facts are simple here: Apps grant easier access your habits and identity as compared to a relatively-sandboxed browser.
microflash 2y ago
I use Firefox on Android (which I can't on iOS) and I use it instead of apps wherever I can. Why should I install an app for every single thing?
- azinman2 2y ago
  That’s fine as an anecdata of n=1. But it doesn’t seem that apps are unpopular on Android, where as the GP seemed to suggest that Safari was the reason for app popularity. That just doesn’t seem to be true, given on Android we don’t see a large inversion.

raxxorraxor 2y ago

They can take their time, although they seem to implement the worst parts of it. Remote attestation and manifest v3. Who else could ever live without these features?

pjerem 2y ago

Heh, Safari may lack some APIs, but it’s irrelevant for 95% of apps including Patreon. It’s not like Patreon would be unusable on iOS without an app.

marticode 2y ago
I still remember when they refused to support forms constraints (there was the JS API, but not the UI designed to show users what they got wrong with their form, so you had to polyfill that specifically for Safari). Forms are pretty darn important to 99.9% of web apps, this felt like active sabotage.
meiraleal 2y ago
It is baffling how some random people will come to Apple's defense from the most unimaginable angles. "Safari is lacking but should be enough for 95% of the apps". Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%?
- troupo 2y ago
  > Why do we even have the App Store then? For the rest 5%? No. We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. And for hundreds of thousands of apps that people could implement using web tech, but don't want to for various reasons, both big (too many workarounds) to small (abysmal performance for the simplest tasks)
  - KingMob 2y ago
    > We have AppStore for the hundreds of thousands of apps that cannot be implemented using web tech. These are not disconnected, though. The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases, but Apple wouldn't be able to collect 30% of the profits. Safari was a laggard for many years while the App Store was being entrenched.
    - troupo 2y ago
      > The web COULD be made to support more of these use cases No, it couldn't > but Apple Apple has nothing to do with the fact that the web can barely render a page of static text and images without stutter. Almost every single app made with web technologies is a slow bloated abomination barely capable of doing a few primitive things right. And those that aren't have insane amounts of effort poured into them. If you believe that Apple has something to do with it, why isn't there a flood of amazing smooth native-like apps on Android where none of the real or perceived limitations exist? Why is there a Google Play store with hundreds of thousands of apps?

deanishe 2y ago

> Apple is well known for keeping web app experience subpar compared to native app experience. Web apps are subpar compared to native apps. I'm not surprised Apple is in no hurry to further enable lowest-common-denominator shovelware. Electron is a plague on macOS.