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Layoffs are still happening in tech (Cisco, Intel, Intuit to name a few in the last couple of months) and companies that are hiring, have very few roles or are

Layoffs are still happening in tech (Cisco, Intel, Intuit to name a few in the last couple of months) and companies that are hiring, have very few roles or are very selective in their hiring process. And beyond hiring, internally, the companies are being hyper focused on performance. People are being let go despite working hard and going above and beyond. The comparison really is: Do I leave my current job which may pay less but won’t fire me or do I go to a new company, risk performance based firing and then be unemployed for months before I find the next job.

jimbob45 2y ago
People are being let go despite working hard and going above and beyond. This is what primarily scares me and my circle. I'm not going to look for another job while I see and know people far smarter than me being let go from positions far more important than mine.
- rachofsunshine 2y ago
  I'd argue that's a very good reason to have backup options. Remember that looking for a job does not commit you to leaving your current one unless you find something better.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    The problem is that the job market is a market for lemons on both sides. From the employee side, I have no way of knowing whether I've actually found something better. It could be that I've just found a company that interviews well or that got lucky enough to avoid putting foot in mouth long enough to get me out the door. If I'm in a company that's good enough and am not sure I'll be able to land a job six months from now, it makes very little sense for me to even start looking because I know that any new job I find might be a lemon, even if it looks better during the interviews.
    - rachofsunshine 2y ago
      Market-for-lemons is sometimes a useful framing, but there's such a thing as taking it too far. Markets, even markets for lemons, are frequently in non-equilibrium states. That can happen because actors have imperfect information, because underlying conditions have changed, because some actors are new to the market and haven't settled to equilibrium yet, because people have personal beliefs that override market-rational behavior, because market actors are simply bad at their jobs, or any number of other reasons. Far more information-perfect, rational, and optimized markets than hiring frequently show inefficient behavior in practice. Yes, there are market pressures that tend to remove good candidates and good jobs from the market, and that incentivize both sides to pretend they're better than they are. But a tendency is only a tendency, and not a guarantee, and incentives can be missed or ignored or defied or failed in implementation. A bad company might be incentivized to lie to you, but they have to be self-aware that they suck (a trait terrible companies very frequently fail at) and capable of implementing the deception, among other things. And that means that your impressions when you speak to them do carry meaningful signal that should shift your beliefs about them. A new job might be a lemon. But it also might not. You don't need to be certain that it isn't; you just need to be sure enough that the expected value of taking the new job, minus whatever risk discounting you're choosing to use, (minus the cost of searching for one), is greater than the expected value of staying in your current job.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        > You don't need to be certain that it isn't; you just need to be sure enough that the expected value of taking the new job, minus whatever risk discounting you're choosing to use, (minus the cost of searching for one), is greater than the expected value of staying in your current job. Agreed. And what I'm saying is that people aren't looking because the job interview process provides little enough information that the expected value of job hopping right now is very unlikely to exceed the expected value of staying put unless they're already in a bad situation. The time spent fielding phone screens and interviews isn't worth it if you already know that even a seemingly dream job wouldn't be worth the risk right now. In another, more certain environment with lower risk of long-term unemployment the calculus is different, but right now sticking with the devil you know is for most of us the most rational move until the layoffs slow down.
SoftTalker 2y ago
> the companies are being hyper focused on performance If you are being paid some multiple of six figures would you not expect this?
- delfinom 2y ago
  Yea, I think much of the tech industry has really had it too cushy. The (internet) tech industry had 2 decades of nearly constant growth because it was a completely new thing to human civilization. But now it's all hitting maturity and the status quo is changing with it. It's also why companies are desperate to sell AI as its currently the only visible avenue for further large growth to pump stocks.
- Copernicron 2y ago
  Good one. Next you’ll tell me that I’m horribly under compensated for not getting huge amounts of equity when no one in my company gets equity.
VirusNewbie 2y ago
Right but a year ago, FAANG and deca-corns weren't even hiring at ALL. There was almost no headcount. Sure it's not a boom, but there is hiring, teams are getting backfills, it's not great but it's not near as horrible as it was.

jimbob45 2y ago

People are being let go despite working hard and going above and beyond. This is what primarily scares me and my circle. I'm not going to look for another job while I see and know people far smarter than me being let go from positions far more important than mine.

rachofsunshine 2y ago
I'd argue that's a very good reason to have backup options. Remember that looking for a job does not commit you to leaving your current one unless you find something better.
- lolinder 2y ago
  The problem is that the job market is a market for lemons on both sides. From the employee side, I have no way of knowing whether I've actually found something better. It could be that I've just found a company that interviews well or that got lucky enough to avoid putting foot in mouth long enough to get me out the door. If I'm in a company that's good enough and am not sure I'll be able to land a job six months from now, it makes very little sense for me to even start looking because I know that any new job I find might be a lemon, even if it looks better during the interviews.
  - rachofsunshine 2y ago
    Market-for-lemons is sometimes a useful framing, but there's such a thing as taking it too far. Markets, even markets for lemons, are frequently in non-equilibrium states. That can happen because actors have imperfect information, because underlying conditions have changed, because some actors are new to the market and haven't settled to equilibrium yet, because people have personal beliefs that override market-rational behavior, because market actors are simply bad at their jobs, or any number of other reasons. Far more information-perfect, rational, and optimized markets than hiring frequently show inefficient behavior in practice. Yes, there are market pressures that tend to remove good candidates and good jobs from the market, and that incentivize both sides to pretend they're better than they are. But a tendency is only a tendency, and not a guarantee, and incentives can be missed or ignored or defied or failed in implementation. A bad company might be incentivized to lie to you, but they have to be self-aware that they suck (a trait terrible companies very frequently fail at) and capable of implementing the deception, among other things. And that means that your impressions when you speak to them do carry meaningful signal that should shift your beliefs about them. A new job might be a lemon. But it also might not. You don't need to be certain that it isn't; you just need to be sure enough that the expected value of taking the new job, minus whatever risk discounting you're choosing to use, (minus the cost of searching for one), is greater than the expected value of staying in your current job.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      > You don't need to be certain that it isn't; you just need to be sure enough that the expected value of taking the new job, minus whatever risk discounting you're choosing to use, (minus the cost of searching for one), is greater than the expected value of staying in your current job. Agreed. And what I'm saying is that people aren't looking because the job interview process provides little enough information that the expected value of job hopping right now is very unlikely to exceed the expected value of staying put unless they're already in a bad situation. The time spent fielding phone screens and interviews isn't worth it if you already know that even a seemingly dream job wouldn't be worth the risk right now. In another, more certain environment with lower risk of long-term unemployment the calculus is different, but right now sticking with the devil you know is for most of us the most rational move until the layoffs slow down.

SoftTalker 2y ago

> the companies are being hyper focused on performance If you are being paid some multiple of six figures would you not expect this?

delfinom 2y ago
Yea, I think much of the tech industry has really had it too cushy. The (internet) tech industry had 2 decades of nearly constant growth because it was a completely new thing to human civilization. But now it's all hitting maturity and the status quo is changing with it. It's also why companies are desperate to sell AI as its currently the only visible avenue for further large growth to pump stocks.
Copernicron 2y ago
Good one. Next you’ll tell me that I’m horribly under compensated for not getting huge amounts of equity when no one in my company gets equity.

VirusNewbie 2y ago

Right but a year ago, FAANG and deca-corns weren't even hiring at ALL. There was almost no headcount. Sure it's not a boom, but there is hiring, teams are getting backfills, it's not great but it's not near as horrible as it was.