7 ms·

My lab is trying to purchase a new office computer with heavy enough workloads to justify a mid-to-high tier CPU. I recommended that we buy an AMD machine prima

My lab is trying to purchase a new office computer with heavy enough workloads to justify a mid-to-high tier CPU. I recommended that we buy an AMD machine primarily because of the current intel issues. The first problem I ran into is that the majority of companies selling pre-built computers do not offer an AMD option (and pre-built is a must. We are not allowed to use grant money to buy all the parts and assemble ourselves, which would have been my preferred option). And when they do, they are often limited in selection and might only be older generation or budget-tier CPUs. I did eventually manage to find an AMD option that fit our needs and my boss forwarded to billing for approval. We got significant push back with IT recommending various intel machines that they claimed were "better" (although also several hundred dollars more expensive), but were also available through the universities preferred sales partners. We could probably fight and get them to allow us to purchase what we want (the fact that they have to "allow" it when 100% of our funding is non-university dollars is a separate, ridiculous issue), but honestly, at this point we have probably already spent more staff time on this than the real world differences, even including the micro-code problems, are worth. I'd bet that a lot of corporate contexts, and even home enthusiast customers, operate on the same momentum: they have always bought intel and so they will continue to buy intel. Even in the absence of some strong belief that intel is "better".

f1shy 2y ago
Do I remember correctly that intel was paying companies for not offering AMD? Like Dell?
- dijit 2y ago
  You do. 15 years ago though. https://www.intel.com/pressroom/legal/docs/NY_AG_v._Intel_COMPLAINT.pdf https://www.intel.com/pressroom/legal/docs/NY_AG_v._Intel_CO...
  - Alupis 2y ago
    The effects live on, unfortunately. Justice was not served as an outcome of that case. Today, people's mindshare is still largely with Intel, mostly due to nearly 2 decades of associated brand new computers, and performance with Intel, since they were the only offered option 90% of the time. Think about your typical non-technical person shopping for a computer. "I want Intel, they've always done well for me".
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    Don't be naive. This only means that they wisened up and made sure they will not be caught for 15 years now.
vlovich123 2y ago
Why not start your own company (even non profit) that offers prebuilt machines by buying the parts you want and assembling them?
- dijit 2y ago
  Doing it for his current employer would likely open him up to liability regarding embezzlement. But it’s not a bad idea, the margins for PC building is really low for the general public though.
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    I don't see how a non-profit where the cost of the machine is the cost of the parts only could even realistically be embezzlement.
    - ineptech 2y ago
      It's not that it would be embezzlement, it's that it pattern matches to embezzlement. People with purchasing authority generally can't choose vendors they are involved with because that's such a popular way to steal money.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      That is a very common way embezzle money. Well not the PC business, generally you pick something that looks higher margin and/or harder to get into, but really anything will work so long as it looks like a legitimate business that does something real. The scam is easy: buy something cheap, and charge a lot of $$$ for labor or support costs. It is very easy to hide overhead that can be go back to you. You also typically are not directly involved in the business - that is both too much work and too obvious: instead you get your brother-in-law/uncle/cousin/... to start the business so it looks independent. Then the relative does expensive family vacations, football games and other such things that you happen to be invited on along with all your friends in common. (that is you need to make it look like money is never given to you, but because it is paid for you save a lot of money). The other common thing to do is a charity. If a politician's family is in any way involved with a charity you should assume it is a scam - the charity might otherwise do good work but the family member is there as a way to hide bribes. (again, the money never reaches the politician, but it reaches family members who the politician wants to do well). This of course makes life hard for honest family members of politicians - everything they do looks like the politician (not them!) asking for a bribe.
renewiltord 2y ago
You need to go to an integrator and get an Epyc-based machine. You can do $7k ish per.
etempleton 2y ago
I think there is a lot of trust of Intel. It is the only processor company most people know. For IT departments I think a lot of it is that they want you to have processors they know work with their software stack. In addition, Intel has their own software stack that works with their processors that include features such as Remote Desktop and security. Intel, like Microsoft, has become very good at catering to the Corporate IT crowd.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  > For IT departments I think a lot of it is that they want you to have processors they know work with their software stack I thought the world solved this problem with compilers like 30 years ago. Also you're vastly overestimating the knowledge of the average computer users. Many of them can't even tell the difference between the CPU and GPU.
  - aljgz 2y ago
    Sorry, even you overestimated. A lot of users think CPU is the case.
    - p_l 2y ago
      It actually used to be a somewhat valid term, yes. The case with the computer was the Central Processing Units, and the rest was peripherals.
- minkles 2y ago
  It’s also that most IT people doing corp stuff don’t even give a crap or even know what half the hardware is these days. I mean our IT department bought developers laptops with 8Gb of soldered in RAM and no expansion then bitched at the dev team when they were told to piss off
pdimitar 2y ago
> pre-built is a must. We are not allowed to use grant money to buy all the parts and assemble ourselves, which would have been my preferred option Huh. Why? This seems arbitrary.
- metalliqaz 2y ago
  because the bean counters track assets, which means computers, not various parts.
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  I spent probably $20k on labor costs alone to order 4 developer laptops for my team when I worked for the U.S. Navy. Procurement rules often exist for good reasons, but they're one of the reasons I moved back to the private sector.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    Apologies for my ignorance, but can you describe it to me in practical terms what does it exactly mean to spend $20k on labor costs just to order 4 developer laptops, please?
    - CoastalCoder 2y ago
      Soliciting multiple bids, getting exceptions to normal computer procurement rules, navigating the other more mainstream rules, and some other stuff, IIRC. Happily it was a while ago and I purged most of the details from my brain.
    - mandevil 2y ago
      That's the number of hours it took to do all of the paperwork necessary for the acquisition, times the hourly rates charged to the government (as a general rule for USG cost-plus contracts, 1.5x the developer salary to cover benefits, contractor overhead, etc.) by the people doing the paperwork. The one I remember best from when I was working gov't contractors was that there were forms that certified we were currently complying with all current US trade embargoes and sanctions regimes. So we had to investigate and make sure that we were complying with them all- the State department has a searchable list of all the people and companies that are under various levels of sanctions. But that paperwork, times all of the other forms we had to fill out, times a competitive bidding process (with possibility for appeals) to make sure the government wasn't getting ripped off, etc. This can happen in the private industry as well: I remember once seeing a whole bunch of level 2 managers in a conference room battling it out over exactly which laptop to buy for ~15 developers who needed special extra beefy hardware for a project, and commenting to my L1 manager that the price difference between the two laptops was less than the cost to the company of that meeting, so it would have been wiser to just buy the more expensive laptops and forget the argument.
acchow 2y ago
> the majority of companies selling pre-built computers do not offer an AMD option Don’t you just need to find 3-4 sellers to do a shopping comparison? Don’t need anything close to the “majority”
diabllicseagull 2y ago
I've had a similar experience a few years ago. At the time, enthusiast Ryzen CPUs had just started outperforming Xeons that Dell and others were exclusively pushing. A sub thousand box edging out a ten thousand dollar workstation wasn't enough to move the needle until Threadripper workstations started to show up. Even then I wasn't able to push our IT to consider AMD as a serious replacement. Maybe that's partially why we still see ten Intel options for every AMD one.
yamumsafknho 2y ago
[flagged]
Sn0wCoder 2y ago
System 76 has some AMD desktop / laptop options https://system76.com/desktops https://system76.com/desktops Sounds like its a no go anyway, but just in case this is not the one you already found.
- dagw 2y ago
  But even there you see the problem. The Ryzen CPUs are only in their lower end budget systems, and the Threadrippers are only in their expensive high end systems. If you need a 'mid-level' system (like we buy where I work), with say around a dozen cores, an RTX 4090, and 128 GB of RAM, then you have to go with Intel even here. Their cheapest Threadripper computer with matching specs is literally $3000 more.
  - paulmd 2y ago
    the ryzen 7/9 model is literally more expensive than every intel system they offer on that page? and yes, threadripper is unfortunately quite expensive now, that's a decision AMD made back in 2019 with the 3000 series to go heavily upmarket on that. In most cases if you are a customer who is in the market for threadripper, you are better off just using epyc now, unless your highly-parallel workload also needs very high max clocks.

f1shy 2y ago

Do I remember correctly that intel was paying companies for not offering AMD? Like Dell?

dijit 2y ago
You do. 15 years ago though. https://www.intel.com/pressroom/legal/docs/NY_AG_v._Intel_COMPLAINT.pdf https://www.intel.com/pressroom/legal/docs/NY_AG_v._Intel_CO...
- Alupis 2y ago
  The effects live on, unfortunately. Justice was not served as an outcome of that case. Today, people's mindshare is still largely with Intel, mostly due to nearly 2 decades of associated brand new computers, and performance with Intel, since they were the only offered option 90% of the time. Think about your typical non-technical person shopping for a computer. "I want Intel, they've always done well for me".
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Don't be naive. This only means that they wisened up and made sure they will not be caught for 15 years now.

vlovich123 2y ago

Why not start your own company (even non profit) that offers prebuilt machines by buying the parts you want and assembling them?

dijit 2y ago
Doing it for his current employer would likely open him up to liability regarding embezzlement. But it’s not a bad idea, the margins for PC building is really low for the general public though.
- vlovich123 2y ago
  I don't see how a non-profit where the cost of the machine is the cost of the parts only could even realistically be embezzlement.
  - ineptech 2y ago
    It's not that it would be embezzlement, it's that it pattern matches to embezzlement. People with purchasing authority generally can't choose vendors they are involved with because that's such a popular way to steal money.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    That is a very common way embezzle money. Well not the PC business, generally you pick something that looks higher margin and/or harder to get into, but really anything will work so long as it looks like a legitimate business that does something real. The scam is easy: buy something cheap, and charge a lot of $$$ for labor or support costs. It is very easy to hide overhead that can be go back to you. You also typically are not directly involved in the business - that is both too much work and too obvious: instead you get your brother-in-law/uncle/cousin/... to start the business so it looks independent. Then the relative does expensive family vacations, football games and other such things that you happen to be invited on along with all your friends in common. (that is you need to make it look like money is never given to you, but because it is paid for you save a lot of money). The other common thing to do is a charity. If a politician's family is in any way involved with a charity you should assume it is a scam - the charity might otherwise do good work but the family member is there as a way to hide bribes. (again, the money never reaches the politician, but it reaches family members who the politician wants to do well). This of course makes life hard for honest family members of politicians - everything they do looks like the politician (not them!) asking for a bribe.

renewiltord 2y ago

You need to go to an integrator and get an Epyc-based machine. You can do $7k ish per.

etempleton 2y ago

I think there is a lot of trust of Intel. It is the only processor company most people know. For IT departments I think a lot of it is that they want you to have processors they know work with their software stack. In addition, Intel has their own software stack that works with their processors that include features such as Remote Desktop and security. Intel, like Microsoft, has become very good at catering to the Corporate IT crowd.

pdimitar 2y ago
> For IT departments I think a lot of it is that they want you to have processors they know work with their software stack I thought the world solved this problem with compilers like 30 years ago. Also you're vastly overestimating the knowledge of the average computer users. Many of them can't even tell the difference between the CPU and GPU.
- aljgz 2y ago
  Sorry, even you overestimated. A lot of users think CPU is the case.
  - p_l 2y ago
    It actually used to be a somewhat valid term, yes. The case with the computer was the Central Processing Units, and the rest was peripherals.
minkles 2y ago
It’s also that most IT people doing corp stuff don’t even give a crap or even know what half the hardware is these days. I mean our IT department bought developers laptops with 8Gb of soldered in RAM and no expansion then bitched at the dev team when they were told to piss off

pdimitar 2y ago

> pre-built is a must. We are not allowed to use grant money to buy all the parts and assemble ourselves, which would have been my preferred option Huh. Why? This seems arbitrary.

metalliqaz 2y ago
because the bean counters track assets, which means computers, not various parts.
CoastalCoder 2y ago
I spent probably $20k on labor costs alone to order 4 developer laptops for my team when I worked for the U.S. Navy. Procurement rules often exist for good reasons, but they're one of the reasons I moved back to the private sector.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  Apologies for my ignorance, but can you describe it to me in practical terms what does it exactly mean to spend $20k on labor costs just to order 4 developer laptops, please?
  - CoastalCoder 2y ago
    Soliciting multiple bids, getting exceptions to normal computer procurement rules, navigating the other more mainstream rules, and some other stuff, IIRC. Happily it was a while ago and I purged most of the details from my brain.
  - mandevil 2y ago
    That's the number of hours it took to do all of the paperwork necessary for the acquisition, times the hourly rates charged to the government (as a general rule for USG cost-plus contracts, 1.5x the developer salary to cover benefits, contractor overhead, etc.) by the people doing the paperwork. The one I remember best from when I was working gov't contractors was that there were forms that certified we were currently complying with all current US trade embargoes and sanctions regimes. So we had to investigate and make sure that we were complying with them all- the State department has a searchable list of all the people and companies that are under various levels of sanctions. But that paperwork, times all of the other forms we had to fill out, times a competitive bidding process (with possibility for appeals) to make sure the government wasn't getting ripped off, etc. This can happen in the private industry as well: I remember once seeing a whole bunch of level 2 managers in a conference room battling it out over exactly which laptop to buy for ~15 developers who needed special extra beefy hardware for a project, and commenting to my L1 manager that the price difference between the two laptops was less than the cost to the company of that meeting, so it would have been wiser to just buy the more expensive laptops and forget the argument.

acchow 2y ago

> the majority of companies selling pre-built computers do not offer an AMD option Don’t you just need to find 3-4 sellers to do a shopping comparison? Don’t need anything close to the “majority”

diabllicseagull 2y ago

I've had a similar experience a few years ago. At the time, enthusiast Ryzen CPUs had just started outperforming Xeons that Dell and others were exclusively pushing. A sub thousand box edging out a ten thousand dollar workstation wasn't enough to move the needle until Threadripper workstations started to show up. Even then I wasn't able to push our IT to consider AMD as a serious replacement. Maybe that's partially why we still see ten Intel options for every AMD one.

yamumsafknho 2y ago

[flagged]

Sn0wCoder 2y ago

System 76 has some AMD desktop / laptop options https://system76.com/desktops https://system76.com/desktops Sounds like its a no go anyway, but just in case this is not the one you already found.

dagw 2y ago
But even there you see the problem. The Ryzen CPUs are only in their lower end budget systems, and the Threadrippers are only in their expensive high end systems. If you need a 'mid-level' system (like we buy where I work), with say around a dozen cores, an RTX 4090, and 128 GB of RAM, then you have to go with Intel even here. Their cheapest Threadripper computer with matching specs is literally $3000 more.
- paulmd 2y ago
  the ryzen 7/9 model is literally more expensive than every intel system they offer on that page? and yes, threadripper is unfortunately quite expensive now, that's a decision AMD made back in 2019 with the 3000 series to go heavily upmarket on that. In most cases if you are a customer who is in the market for threadripper, you are better off just using epyc now, unless your highly-parallel workload also needs very high max clocks.