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that's absolutely not how horses work. just like people athletes, horse athletes have a very strong competitive spirit. they understand they are competing and t

by fargle 2y ago

that's absolutely not how horses work. just like people athletes, horse athletes have a very strong competitive spirit. they understand they are competing and the good ones really love it. they will push themselves extremely hard, easily to the point of injury or exhaustion if not pulled back. a good horse also trusts his rider and will do what the rider asks, simply because he asked. if you were to ride a horse like that to exhaustion and then ask it to go on and on, he would, just because you asked, until he physically collapsed. you may be thinking of mules, who are famous for refusing to overwork themselves.

WalterBright 2y ago
A horse having its own will is different from a horse being pushed by its rider.
- fargle 2y ago
  a man isn't going to run himself to death either. unless you have better friends than me, it'd take a lot more than a little ask or pushing for one of your friends to run themselves to collapse or to death just because you kept asked him to. would you "will" yourself to run yourself to death? few would argue they would or could. further, from the conclusion: "The case for defined limits in horses and dogs is particularly strong" and "... race speeds in these animals have not increased in the last 40–60 years. Thus, for horses and dogs, a limit appears to have been reached" "The situation is less clear cut for humans, in particular for men" and "data suggest that a limit to male human speed exists, and that this speed is only a few per cent greater than that observed to date. But unlike speeds in horses and dogs, and sprint speeds for women, speeds for men have not yet reached a plateau" So if human men have this "will power" advantage, why have they not yet improved to their plateau? (which is still far below the horse)? they certainly have plenty of coaches asking and "pushing" them, and many other strong incentives to go faster. to me it suggests that is not will power that is an advantage at all, it's instead a willingness to do what is asked just for the sake of it. great horses just have a really big heart and they do love to run. that's their advantage.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > if human men have this "will power" advantage, why have they not yet improved to their plateau? "data suggest" isn't a strong argument for where that plateau might be. Your argument seems to also omit the application of science to training - has that been applied to animals? Does a dog communicate with his trainer with the depth and accuracy that an athlete does? Human athletes improve over the years likely because of: 1. better training methods 2. better nutrition 3. drugs 4. more incentives 5. better attitudes and mindset Human minds are far more capable than horse minds, and so can have goals and make tradeoffs that horse minds are incapable of. This is the basis of having a superior will. Do horses make plans for the future? I seriously doubt it.
    - fargle 2y ago
      >"data suggest" isn't a strong argument not my argument, not my words, quoted from from TFA. > has that been applied to animals? yes 100% it has. > Does a dog communicate with his trainer with the depth and accuracy that an athlete does? yes. i'm more familiar with horses, but the connection between rider/trainer and horse is very deep and precise. people build walls. your points 1 - 4 are 100% applicable to animals just as well in my opinion, point 5 is solidly won by the animal athletes > Human minds are far more capable than horse minds, and so can have goals and make tradeoffs that horse minds are incapable of. precisely. mind, and will, is not an advantage for raw performance. that's why for example donkeys and mules don't perform like horses - they are technically smarter. > Do horses make plans for the future? nope. not at all. they 100% live in the moment. they just like to run and love to do what they're asked to. do you see how, for an athlete, that is the almost perfect thing? it takes humans a lot of training to let their minds blank and get "in the zone". we fight against our minds sometimes. i'm not saying human smarts or will is not an "advantage" overall. but for going fast? not necessarily. it's just not a "A huge advantage" to running. Walter, i've enjoyed the back/forth. i also really appreciate the things you have done and created, btw. i'm not trying to be argumentative, but i am trying to expose you to how awesome these animal athletes are. really they are extraordinary. they are, in fact, the real-life dragons and mythical creatures we romanticize, and for once it's not an exageration. perhaps it's difficult to convey, but if you ever can, find a good horse to hang out with. they blow people away. even a bog average horse (or a dog) is 1000% the friend and has at least 1000% the heart of anyone you'll know.

by fargle 2y ago

WalterBright 2y ago

A horse having its own will is different from a horse being pushed by its rider.

fargle 2y ago
a man isn't going to run himself to death either. unless you have better friends than me, it'd take a lot more than a little ask or pushing for one of your friends to run themselves to collapse or to death just because you kept asked him to. would you "will" yourself to run yourself to death? few would argue they would or could. further, from the conclusion: "The case for defined limits in horses and dogs is particularly strong" and "... race speeds in these animals have not increased in the last 40–60 years. Thus, for horses and dogs, a limit appears to have been reached" "The situation is less clear cut for humans, in particular for men" and "data suggest that a limit to male human speed exists, and that this speed is only a few per cent greater than that observed to date. But unlike speeds in horses and dogs, and sprint speeds for women, speeds for men have not yet reached a plateau" So if human men have this "will power" advantage, why have they not yet improved to their plateau? (which is still far below the horse)? they certainly have plenty of coaches asking and "pushing" them, and many other strong incentives to go faster. to me it suggests that is not will power that is an advantage at all, it's instead a willingness to do what is asked just for the sake of it. great horses just have a really big heart and they do love to run. that's their advantage.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > if human men have this "will power" advantage, why have they not yet improved to their plateau? "data suggest" isn't a strong argument for where that plateau might be. Your argument seems to also omit the application of science to training - has that been applied to animals? Does a dog communicate with his trainer with the depth and accuracy that an athlete does? Human athletes improve over the years likely because of: 1. better training methods 2. better nutrition 3. drugs 4. more incentives 5. better attitudes and mindset Human minds are far more capable than horse minds, and so can have goals and make tradeoffs that horse minds are incapable of. This is the basis of having a superior will. Do horses make plans for the future? I seriously doubt it.
  - fargle 2y ago
    >"data suggest" isn't a strong argument not my argument, not my words, quoted from from TFA. > has that been applied to animals? yes 100% it has. > Does a dog communicate with his trainer with the depth and accuracy that an athlete does? yes. i'm more familiar with horses, but the connection between rider/trainer and horse is very deep and precise. people build walls. your points 1 - 4 are 100% applicable to animals just as well in my opinion, point 5 is solidly won by the animal athletes > Human minds are far more capable than horse minds, and so can have goals and make tradeoffs that horse minds are incapable of. precisely. mind, and will, is not an advantage for raw performance. that's why for example donkeys and mules don't perform like horses - they are technically smarter. > Do horses make plans for the future? nope. not at all. they 100% live in the moment. they just like to run and love to do what they're asked to. do you see how, for an athlete, that is the almost perfect thing? it takes humans a lot of training to let their minds blank and get "in the zone". we fight against our minds sometimes. i'm not saying human smarts or will is not an "advantage" overall. but for going fast? not necessarily. it's just not a "A huge advantage" to running. Walter, i've enjoyed the back/forth. i also really appreciate the things you have done and created, btw. i'm not trying to be argumentative, but i am trying to expose you to how awesome these animal athletes are. really they are extraordinary. they are, in fact, the real-life dragons and mythical creatures we romanticize, and for once it's not an exageration. perhaps it's difficult to convey, but if you ever can, find a good horse to hang out with. they blow people away. even a bog average horse (or a dog) is 1000% the friend and has at least 1000% the heart of anyone you'll know.