4 ms·

I was thinking more about the batteries part if people are aiming for grid scale storage.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Sodium ion batteries do not require rare earths. Rare earths are not a limiter to scaling up PV and battery storage deployment. All necessary inputs are abundant and geographically diverse. Minerals and energy goes in, out comes clean energy infra. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-in-solar-panels/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-... https://electrek.co/2024/05/17/china-first-large-scale-sodium-ion-battery/ https://electrek.co/2024/05/17/china-first-large-scale-sodiu...
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  > Sodium ion batteries That’s prospective technology developed literally in order to overcome the limitation that is lithium availability… The battery you are talking about in China is both the first and very small capacity related to the grid. I’m sorry but I think you clearly have an axe to grind and are not engaging with me with full intellectual honesty here.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I’ve provided facts. If you are unhappy with those facts, that is a choice, but the facts are still facts. Lithium is also abundant; I mentioned sodium because it is even more abundant and the evidence shows China’s pilot with the technology to be successful, but using lithium for utility scale storage is also feasible based on reserves available [1] and cost [2] if sodium ion utility scale storage is unable to scale, for whatever reason. Neither chemistry requires rare earths. [1] https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-vehicles https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-v... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-07-09/china-s-batteries-are-now-cheap-enough-to-power-huge-shifts https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-07-09/china-... | https://archive.today/DklaA https://archive.today/DklaA
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Additional citation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41292113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41292113 ("HN: North Carolina is getting a $1.4B sodium-ion battery gigafactory") https://electrek.co/2024/08/16/north-carolina-sodium-ion-battery-gigafactory/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/16/north-carolina-sodium-ion-bat... ("electrek: North Carolina is getting a $1.4B sodium-ion battery gigafactory")
rstuart4133 2y ago
Most house batteries use LFP. They do not contain rare earths. I've never checked, but I presume that's true for grid scale batteries too as the cost per kWh stored is roughly the same LCM, but LFP last for an order of magnitude more cycles (and weigh more, which isn't a concern for grid storage).
bryanlarsen 2y ago
Batteries don't use rare earths either. Rare earths are used in magnets, which are used in most motors and generators.

Sodium ion batteries do not require rare earths. Rare earths are not a limiter to scaling up PV and battery storage deployment. All necessary inputs are abundant and geographically diverse. Minerals and energy goes in, out comes clean energy infra. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-in-solar-panels/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-... https://electrek.co/2024/05/17/china-first-large-scale-sodium-ion-battery/ https://electrek.co/2024/05/17/china-first-large-scale-sodiu...

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
> Sodium ion batteries That’s prospective technology developed literally in order to overcome the limitation that is lithium availability… The battery you are talking about in China is both the first and very small capacity related to the grid. I’m sorry but I think you clearly have an axe to grind and are not engaging with me with full intellectual honesty here.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  I’ve provided facts. If you are unhappy with those facts, that is a choice, but the facts are still facts. Lithium is also abundant; I mentioned sodium because it is even more abundant and the evidence shows China’s pilot with the technology to be successful, but using lithium for utility scale storage is also feasible based on reserves available [1] and cost [2] if sodium ion utility scale storage is unable to scale, for whatever reason. Neither chemistry requires rare earths. [1] https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-vehicles https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-v... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-07-09/china-s-batteries-are-now-cheap-enough-to-power-huge-shifts https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-07-09/china-... | https://archive.today/DklaA https://archive.today/DklaA
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Additional citation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41292113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41292113 ("HN: North Carolina is getting a $1.4B sodium-ion battery gigafactory") https://electrek.co/2024/08/16/north-carolina-sodium-ion-battery-gigafactory/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/16/north-carolina-sodium-ion-bat... ("electrek: North Carolina is getting a $1.4B sodium-ion battery gigafactory")

rstuart4133 2y ago

Most house batteries use LFP. They do not contain rare earths. I've never checked, but I presume that's true for grid scale batteries too as the cost per kWh stored is roughly the same LCM, but LFP last for an order of magnitude more cycles (and weigh more, which isn't a concern for grid storage).

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Batteries don't use rare earths either. Rare earths are used in magnets, which are used in most motors and generators.