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Rare earth elements production will be the limiting factor. China is already the first producer by far and has been scaling up but not fast enough. I’m sceptic

Rare earth elements production will be the limiting factor. China is already the first producer by far and has been scaling up but not fast enough. I’m sceptical of PV being *the* solution to the world energy issue but who knows, maybe.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Solar panels generally don't use rare earths.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  I was thinking more about the batteries part if people are aiming for grid scale storage.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Sodium ion batteries do not require rare earths. Rare earths are not a limiter to scaling up PV and battery storage deployment. All necessary inputs are abundant and geographically diverse. Minerals and energy goes in, out comes clean energy infra. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-in-solar-panels/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-... https://electrek.co/2024/05/17/china-first-large-scale-sodium-ion-battery/ https://electrek.co/2024/05/17/china-first-large-scale-sodiu...
    - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
      > Sodium ion batteries That’s prospective technology developed literally in order to overcome the limitation that is lithium availability… The battery you are talking about in China is both the first and very small capacity related to the grid. I’m sorry but I think you clearly have an axe to grind and are not engaging with me with full intellectual honesty here.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        I’ve provided facts. If you are unhappy with those facts, that is a choice, but the facts are still facts. Lithium is also abundant; I mentioned sodium because it is even more abundant and the evidence shows China’s pilot with the technology to be successful, but using lithium for utility scale storage is also feasible based on reserves available [1] and cost [2] if sodium ion utility scale storage is unable to scale, for whatever reason. Neither chemistry requires rare earths. [1] https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-vehicles https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-v... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-07-09/china-s-batteries-are-now-cheap-enough-to-power-huge-shifts https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-07-09/china-... | https://archive.today/DklaA https://archive.today/DklaA
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Additional citation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41292113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41292113 ("HN: North Carolina is getting a $1.4B sodium-ion battery gigafactory") https://electrek.co/2024/08/16/north-carolina-sodium-ion-battery-gigafactory/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/16/north-carolina-sodium-ion-bat... ("electrek: North Carolina is getting a $1.4B sodium-ion battery gigafactory")
  - rstuart4133 2y ago
    Most house batteries use LFP. They do not contain rare earths. I've never checked, but I presume that's true for grid scale batteries too as the cost per kWh stored is roughly the same LCM, but LFP last for an order of magnitude more cycles (and weigh more, which isn't a concern for grid storage).
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Batteries don't use rare earths either. Rare earths are used in magnets, which are used in most motors and generators.
- defrost 2y ago
  Solar panels don't exist in isolation; Rare earth elements (REEs) and rare metals are key ingredients for glass, lights, magnets, batteries, and catalytic converters, and used in everything from cell phones to cars. For example, to make the magnet for one wind turbine, you need about 300 kilograms of neodymium. Rare earth production is a limiting factor for general electronics, magnets and batteries.
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - defrost 2y ago
      You might want to talk to material engineers about the vast spectrum of types of glass in use today. There's more to glass than borosilicates and bulk ingredients are the least interesting source of unique properties. FWiW Soda-Lime glass is more common than borosilicate glass and bases in at ~ 70 percent silica (silicon dioxide), 15 percent soda (sodium oxide), and 9 percent lime (calcium oxide). No Boron (in general). That dull fact alone suggests your knowledge of glass could use a significant leg up. If you're looking to better educate yourself there's the Corning School of Glass for the Art Glass applications and various industrial glass journals about optical glass, strengthened glass, et al. As for rare earths in glass you can either take the material science journal search approach (multiple hits) or refer to the uses page of the largest global supplier of rare earths: Rare earths react with other metallic and non-metallic elements to form compounds each of which has specific chemical behaviours. This makes them indispensable and non-replaceable in many electrical, optical, magnetic, and catalytic applications. ~ https://lynasrareearths.com/about-us/what-are-rare-earths/ https://lynasrareearths.com/about-us/what-are-rare-earths/ See the part "non-replaceable in many .. optical .. applications" ?
      - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
        optical here means microscopes/glasses and the like where you need very fine IOR control, not a flat piece of glass on top of a solar pannel.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Solar panels generally don't use rare earths.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
I was thinking more about the batteries part if people are aiming for grid scale storage.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Sodium ion batteries do not require rare earths. Rare earths are not a limiter to scaling up PV and battery storage deployment. All necessary inputs are abundant and geographically diverse. Minerals and energy goes in, out comes clean energy infra. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-in-solar-panels/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/28/are-rare-earths-used-... https://electrek.co/2024/05/17/china-first-large-scale-sodium-ion-battery/ https://electrek.co/2024/05/17/china-first-large-scale-sodiu...
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    > Sodium ion batteries That’s prospective technology developed literally in order to overcome the limitation that is lithium availability… The battery you are talking about in China is both the first and very small capacity related to the grid. I’m sorry but I think you clearly have an axe to grind and are not engaging with me with full intellectual honesty here.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I’ve provided facts. If you are unhappy with those facts, that is a choice, but the facts are still facts. Lithium is also abundant; I mentioned sodium because it is even more abundant and the evidence shows China’s pilot with the technology to be successful, but using lithium for utility scale storage is also feasible based on reserves available [1] and cost [2] if sodium ion utility scale storage is unable to scale, for whatever reason. Neither chemistry requires rare earths. [1] https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-vehicles https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/lithium-electric-v... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-07-09/china-s-batteries-are-now-cheap-enough-to-power-huge-shifts https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-07-09/china-... | https://archive.today/DklaA https://archive.today/DklaA
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Additional citation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41292113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41292113 ("HN: North Carolina is getting a $1.4B sodium-ion battery gigafactory") https://electrek.co/2024/08/16/north-carolina-sodium-ion-battery-gigafactory/ https://electrek.co/2024/08/16/north-carolina-sodium-ion-bat... ("electrek: North Carolina is getting a $1.4B sodium-ion battery gigafactory")
- rstuart4133 2y ago
  Most house batteries use LFP. They do not contain rare earths. I've never checked, but I presume that's true for grid scale batteries too as the cost per kWh stored is roughly the same LCM, but LFP last for an order of magnitude more cycles (and weigh more, which isn't a concern for grid storage).
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Batteries don't use rare earths either. Rare earths are used in magnets, which are used in most motors and generators.
defrost 2y ago
Solar panels don't exist in isolation; Rare earth elements (REEs) and rare metals are key ingredients for glass, lights, magnets, batteries, and catalytic converters, and used in everything from cell phones to cars. For example, to make the magnet for one wind turbine, you need about 300 kilograms of neodymium. Rare earth production is a limiting factor for general electronics, magnets and batteries.
- adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - defrost 2y ago
    You might want to talk to material engineers about the vast spectrum of types of glass in use today. There's more to glass than borosilicates and bulk ingredients are the least interesting source of unique properties. FWiW Soda-Lime glass is more common than borosilicate glass and bases in at ~ 70 percent silica (silicon dioxide), 15 percent soda (sodium oxide), and 9 percent lime (calcium oxide). No Boron (in general). That dull fact alone suggests your knowledge of glass could use a significant leg up. If you're looking to better educate yourself there's the Corning School of Glass for the Art Glass applications and various industrial glass journals about optical glass, strengthened glass, et al. As for rare earths in glass you can either take the material science journal search approach (multiple hits) or refer to the uses page of the largest global supplier of rare earths: Rare earths react with other metallic and non-metallic elements to form compounds each of which has specific chemical behaviours. This makes them indispensable and non-replaceable in many electrical, optical, magnetic, and catalytic applications. ~ https://lynasrareearths.com/about-us/what-are-rare-earths/ https://lynasrareearths.com/about-us/what-are-rare-earths/ See the part "non-replaceable in many .. optical .. applications" ?
    - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
      optical here means microscopes/glasses and the like where you need very fine IOR control, not a flat piece of glass on top of a solar pannel.