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It keeps being brought up. I suspect as a sort of character assassination technique. Sort of the disaster analysis version of bike-shedding. "well I don't know

by somat 2y ago

It keeps being brought up. I suspect as a sort of character assassination technique. Sort of the disaster analysis version of bike-shedding. "well I don't know much about the physics of carbon fiber in high pressure environments, but I know a cheap gamepad when I see one." However, I expect that such a commercial off the shelf gamepad to be probably the most reliable well tested piece of equipment on the sub. it is highly unlikely to go bad and is super easy to carry a spare. Also no analysis I have seen actually knows how the sub was controlled or bothers to explain how you would do it better than a gamepad. If I had to guess, the motors and ballast controls went into an array of controller boards in a rack somewhere. the control circuity(probably something like i2c or canbus) tied into a central microcontroller. and then a laptop or tablet is used for the human IO(gamepads and screens). There probably was not much redundancy in the system, but I am not sure that is a bad thing, redundancy massively complicates the design and introduces new error conditions. (look into the causes of the US Navy destroyer John S. McCain collision, it was a highly redundant controller system. and the helmsman failed to realize he had no control, it was really a training issue) often it is better to just have the ability for manual control. that is, go back to the rack of motor controllers and manually start twisting knobs and jumping wires. but none of this matters, because it is not what failed. It cheapens the narrative to go after stupid superficial things like the gamepad, that did not cause or contribute to the fault rather than what actually caused the engineering failure.

smittywerben 2y ago
> superficial things like the gamepad, that did not cause or contribute to the fault In the prior dive, a passenger hit the sub into a rock. How does that not contribute?
- somat 2y ago
  Don't let the passengers drive? that is unfair, teach them how not to hit rocks? Also unfair, sorry can't help myself today. Really I suppose it depends on how hard and where they hit the rock, was it a failure of of the gamepad that lead to the rock hit? that is, dead controls and drifting (those infernal radio gamepads, amiright) If I remember correctly the whole sub had an outer shroud anyway. how much damage to the outer shroud was done? Anyway, I don't really want to be the guy defending oceangate, I think a carbon fiber submarine sounds like a monumentally ill founded idea in the first place, and the move fast and break things attitude they employed in their engineering process should have never gone anywhere near a passenger. but at first thought, at the speeds the sub moved I doubt a rock hit would damage the sub. if I had to bet, it was plastic deformation leading to delamination and fatigue.
  - smittywerben 2y ago
    They allege that this system was designed by students or recent graduates from Washington University who have no real experience. I don't think it's the student's fault. Showing Rush tossing the controller while saying "it's bluetooth so I can hand it to anybody... it's meant for a 16 year old to throw it around and super durable" is powerful imagery for a jury. The complaint specifically mentions Bluetooth, which I can't tell if it's an error. They switched from the DualShock controller used in Cyclops I, which does use Bluetooth. There is probably a reason they switched wireless technologies (Bluetooth is even worse than Logitech's 2.4 GHz wireless), which if not documented, could also show negligence. Your carbon fiber hull fatigue theory is interesting. I picture it sitting out in the hot sun and cold nights for months. It reminds me of the CNA building in Chicago, where windows fractured due to uneven sun exposure. The owners didn't replace them until one fell and killed a pedestrian, resulting in an $18 million settlement in 1975.
    - andrewflnr 2y ago
      > powerful imagery for a jury Be careful: are you trying to predict legal results, or find truth? Those are (unfortunately) rather different questions. If you're looking for truth, you don't care about what makes "powerful imagery for a jury". BTW, the "carbon fiber hull fatigue" theory is not GPs, it's the extremely obvious top candidate for the failure. Anyway, there is still no evidence that using a gamepad had any concrete negative effect. Letting passengers drive? Yeah, that's a problem. But it would be at least as big a problem with industry standard controls, which wouldn't even have the faint advantage of familiarity.
      - smittywerben 2y ago
        The switch from the Dualshock to the Logitech, as a system designed by students, demonstrates negligence that led to the catastrophe. Had the system not been designed by students, it would not use a wireless game controller. You could argue it in your head but in reality, which is part of the claim, no such system exists in any submarine.

by somat 2y ago

smittywerben 2y ago

> superficial things like the gamepad, that did not cause or contribute to the fault In the prior dive, a passenger hit the sub into a rock. How does that not contribute?

somat 2y ago
Don't let the passengers drive? that is unfair, teach them how not to hit rocks? Also unfair, sorry can't help myself today. Really I suppose it depends on how hard and where they hit the rock, was it a failure of of the gamepad that lead to the rock hit? that is, dead controls and drifting (those infernal radio gamepads, amiright) If I remember correctly the whole sub had an outer shroud anyway. how much damage to the outer shroud was done? Anyway, I don't really want to be the guy defending oceangate, I think a carbon fiber submarine sounds like a monumentally ill founded idea in the first place, and the move fast and break things attitude they employed in their engineering process should have never gone anywhere near a passenger. but at first thought, at the speeds the sub moved I doubt a rock hit would damage the sub. if I had to bet, it was plastic deformation leading to delamination and fatigue.
- smittywerben 2y ago
  They allege that this system was designed by students or recent graduates from Washington University who have no real experience. I don't think it's the student's fault. Showing Rush tossing the controller while saying "it's bluetooth so I can hand it to anybody... it's meant for a 16 year old to throw it around and super durable" is powerful imagery for a jury. The complaint specifically mentions Bluetooth, which I can't tell if it's an error. They switched from the DualShock controller used in Cyclops I, which does use Bluetooth. There is probably a reason they switched wireless technologies (Bluetooth is even worse than Logitech's 2.4 GHz wireless), which if not documented, could also show negligence. Your carbon fiber hull fatigue theory is interesting. I picture it sitting out in the hot sun and cold nights for months. It reminds me of the CNA building in Chicago, where windows fractured due to uneven sun exposure. The owners didn't replace them until one fell and killed a pedestrian, resulting in an $18 million settlement in 1975.
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    > powerful imagery for a jury Be careful: are you trying to predict legal results, or find truth? Those are (unfortunately) rather different questions. If you're looking for truth, you don't care about what makes "powerful imagery for a jury". BTW, the "carbon fiber hull fatigue" theory is not GPs, it's the extremely obvious top candidate for the failure. Anyway, there is still no evidence that using a gamepad had any concrete negative effect. Letting passengers drive? Yeah, that's a problem. But it would be at least as big a problem with industry standard controls, which wouldn't even have the faint advantage of familiarity.
    - smittywerben 2y ago
      The switch from the Dualshock to the Logitech, as a system designed by students, demonstrates negligence that led to the catastrophe. Had the system not been designed by students, it would not use a wireless game controller. You could argue it in your head but in reality, which is part of the claim, no such system exists in any submarine.