5 ms·

Interesting fact: humans are well built for shedding excess heat, which is a limiting factor in long races. It is possible under the right weather conditions f

by mark-r 2y ago

Interesting fact: humans are well built for shedding excess heat, which is a limiting factor in long races. It is possible under the right weather conditions for a man to outrun a horse.

spacecadet 2y ago
I am not a researcher here, but I have read that some believe this contributed to early human success, as it allowed humans to essentially run down their prey over long distances. For instance, as a bow hunter, I have observed how short distance a deer can actually flat out run before what appears to be lack of "something", not lack of fear. That something being energy or physical constraints of some kind. I am also a long distance runner with ultra marathons under my belt and I believe that humans are great at sustained long distance. Anything can sprint fast for a short distance, but it requires a unique combination of human qualities to sustain medium speed over great distances.
- paganel 2y ago
  Since I’ve started owning dogs I’ve realized how much of an advantage we, humans, have as a species because we can sweat and hence regulate our temperature through almost all of our body, while on the other hand dogs can only do that through their tongues (afaik).
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    Dogs have a higher surface-area-to-volume ratio, which helps, though the fur of course hinders. On a related note, I've speculated for years that tongues play a major cooling role for whales. These are highly vascularised structures which can be exposed to tremendous water flows (for effective thermal transfer). The animals otherwise have an immense metabolism, and are largely quite well insulated by blubber. And of course cannot effectively sweat. Even if the usual problem is heat retention, highly-energetic activities (long-distance migration, escape from or combat with predators, feeding activities) might result in excess heat which needs to be shed quickly. As a long-time swimmer myself I've experienced overheating even in relatively cool waters (for humans) and the challenges in reducing core temps. There have been multiple cases of open-water swimmers overheating and even dying swimming in warm temperatures (several in the middle-east over the past decade or so). I'd just written that I'd found no scientific literature discussing this when I attempted another search (using FastGPT from Kagi, which I'm finding quite useful for this sort of thing). And lo! Two hits: "Thermoregulation in the mouths of feeding gray whales" (1997) <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9353198/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9353198/> doi: 10.1126/science.278.5340.1138. "The blood vessel network in the tongues of gray whales precools blood to avoid heat loss via counter-current heat exchange." <https://asknature.org/strategy/lingual-rete-precools-blood/ https://asknature.org/strategy/lingual-rete-precools-blood/> This actually discusses structures of the tongue which reduce thermal transfer, but also specifically addresses the characteristics of the tongue which make it effective at thermal transfer: Baleen whales such as the gray whale move huge quantities of cold ocean water through their very large mouths and across the filtering surface of the baleen. The tongue of a whale can represent as much as 5% of its total body surface area. The whale’s body is well insulated with blubber but not the tongue. Thus, to avoid losing too much of its body heat to the cold water passing through its mouth, the gray whale’s tongue has the largest counter-current heat exchanger yet described. I feel vindicated!
  - ta93754829 2y ago
    I live in a very hot location, and I also happen to like going for long runs. I've long known, if I took my dog with me on my run, it would kill him. Even though he's a fit young dog, there's no way he can handle the heat at running pace for that length of time.
polymatter 2y ago
There is a race based on that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon It’s often fairly close between human and horse
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  Posted recently though little discussion: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41213618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41213618>
WalterBright 2y ago
A huge advantage a human has is a will. A man will keep going far beyond where a horse will just quit.
- mark-r 2y ago
  The horse may quit not because of lack of will, but simply because it is physically unable to go on. The body just stops working properly after a certain point.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    A man will drive himself to much more exhaustion than a horse.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      There is in fact ample history of horses worked to exhaustion: "When Horses Posed a Public Health Hazard" (2008): The horses posed another sanitation problem when they dropped dead — sometimes from overwork, sometimes from disease... <https://archive.nytimes.com/cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/when-horses-posed-a-public-health-hazard/ https://archive.nytimes.com/cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/...> Similar concerns were key in the formation of the SPCA in Britain and the United States: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSPCA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSPCA> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_for_the_Prevention_of_Cruelty_to_Animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_for_the_Preve...> The legend that concerns over animal welfare inspired creation of San Francisco's cable cars ... seems unfounded: Many people have heard the story of Andrew Hallidie inventing the cable car after seeing horses slip and fall to their death on the hilly cobblestones of San Francisco. The story feels right—as an animal lover, Hallidie went on to found the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals—and has achieved mythical status in San Francisco. But it’s not true. Hallidie was motivated by a much more prosaic demand: making money. <https://sfstandard.com/2023/11/18/san-francisco-cable-cars-dont-know/ https://sfstandard.com/2023/11/18/san-francisco-cable-cars-d...> (Hallidie also didn't invent the cable car, though his father invented, and he advanced, steel wire rope technology and its applications, including in cable cars.) Hallidie did help found the SPCA, so he clearly had some concern for animal welfare.

by mark-r 2y ago

Interesting fact: humans are well built for shedding excess heat, which is a limiting factor in long races. It is possible under the right weather conditions for a man to outrun a horse.

spacecadet 2y ago

I am not a researcher here, but I have read that some believe this contributed to early human success, as it allowed humans to essentially run down their prey over long distances. For instance, as a bow hunter, I have observed how short distance a deer can actually flat out run before what appears to be lack of "something", not lack of fear. That something being energy or physical constraints of some kind. I am also a long distance runner with ultra marathons under my belt and I believe that humans are great at sustained long distance. Anything can sprint fast for a short distance, but it requires a unique combination of human qualities to sustain medium speed over great distances.

paganel 2y ago
Since I’ve started owning dogs I’ve realized how much of an advantage we, humans, have as a species because we can sweat and hence regulate our temperature through almost all of our body, while on the other hand dogs can only do that through their tongues (afaik).
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  Dogs have a higher surface-area-to-volume ratio, which helps, though the fur of course hinders. On a related note, I've speculated for years that tongues play a major cooling role for whales. These are highly vascularised structures which can be exposed to tremendous water flows (for effective thermal transfer). The animals otherwise have an immense metabolism, and are largely quite well insulated by blubber. And of course cannot effectively sweat. Even if the usual problem is heat retention, highly-energetic activities (long-distance migration, escape from or combat with predators, feeding activities) might result in excess heat which needs to be shed quickly. As a long-time swimmer myself I've experienced overheating even in relatively cool waters (for humans) and the challenges in reducing core temps. There have been multiple cases of open-water swimmers overheating and even dying swimming in warm temperatures (several in the middle-east over the past decade or so). I'd just written that I'd found no scientific literature discussing this when I attempted another search (using FastGPT from Kagi, which I'm finding quite useful for this sort of thing). And lo! Two hits: "Thermoregulation in the mouths of feeding gray whales" (1997) <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9353198/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9353198/> doi: 10.1126/science.278.5340.1138. "The blood vessel network in the tongues of gray whales precools blood to avoid heat loss via counter-current heat exchange." <https://asknature.org/strategy/lingual-rete-precools-blood/ https://asknature.org/strategy/lingual-rete-precools-blood/> This actually discusses structures of the tongue which reduce thermal transfer, but also specifically addresses the characteristics of the tongue which make it effective at thermal transfer: Baleen whales such as the gray whale move huge quantities of cold ocean water through their very large mouths and across the filtering surface of the baleen. The tongue of a whale can represent as much as 5% of its total body surface area. The whale’s body is well insulated with blubber but not the tongue. Thus, to avoid losing too much of its body heat to the cold water passing through its mouth, the gray whale’s tongue has the largest counter-current heat exchanger yet described. I feel vindicated!
- ta93754829 2y ago
  I live in a very hot location, and I also happen to like going for long runs. I've long known, if I took my dog with me on my run, it would kill him. Even though he's a fit young dog, there's no way he can handle the heat at running pace for that length of time.

polymatter 2y ago

There is a race based on that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon It’s often fairly close between human and horse

dredmorbius 2y ago
Posted recently though little discussion: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41213618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41213618>

WalterBright 2y ago

A huge advantage a human has is a will. A man will keep going far beyond where a horse will just quit.

mark-r 2y ago
The horse may quit not because of lack of will, but simply because it is physically unable to go on. The body just stops working properly after a certain point.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  A man will drive himself to much more exhaustion than a horse.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    There is in fact ample history of horses worked to exhaustion: "When Horses Posed a Public Health Hazard" (2008): The horses posed another sanitation problem when they dropped dead — sometimes from overwork, sometimes from disease... <https://archive.nytimes.com/cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/when-horses-posed-a-public-health-hazard/ https://archive.nytimes.com/cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/...> Similar concerns were key in the formation of the SPCA in Britain and the United States: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSPCA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSPCA> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_for_the_Prevention_of_Cruelty_to_Animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_for_the_Preve...> The legend that concerns over animal welfare inspired creation of San Francisco's cable cars ... seems unfounded: Many people have heard the story of Andrew Hallidie inventing the cable car after seeing horses slip and fall to their death on the hilly cobblestones of San Francisco. The story feels right—as an animal lover, Hallidie went on to found the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals—and has achieved mythical status in San Francisco. But it’s not true. Hallidie was motivated by a much more prosaic demand: making money. <https://sfstandard.com/2023/11/18/san-francisco-cable-cars-dont-know/ https://sfstandard.com/2023/11/18/san-francisco-cable-cars-d...> (Hallidie also didn't invent the cable car, though his father invented, and he advanced, steel wire rope technology and its applications, including in cable cars.) Hallidie did help found the SPCA, so he clearly had some concern for animal welfare.