4 ms·

Can we just make regular-ass EVs that people can afford?

borski 2y ago
Yes, eventually. They're expensive to manufacture for now, because the tech is relatively new (as compared to ICE cars). Price will come down over time.
- cubefox 2y ago
  New? Lithium-ion batteries are almost 50 years old, the electric motor close to 200 years. > German engineer Andreas Flocken built the first real electric car in 1888. Electric trains were also used to transport coal out of mines, as their motors did not use up precious oxygen. Before the pre-eminence of internal combustion engines, electric automobiles also held many speed and distance records. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicl...
  - borski 2y ago
    I’m not suggesting we just recently invented the motor or Li-Ion battery. Modern EVs are costlier to manufacture than modern ICE cars. This is sort of indisputable; the reason for this is because of economies of scale. We know how to manufacture and build ICE cars at scale / cheap. We are still learning how to do that for EVs.
    - cubefox 2y ago
      I don't think we are learning that for electric cars, since those are based on very old technology that is not very complicated. Indeed, electric motors are far simpler than combustion motors, and lithium-ion batteries have been produced in large quantities for a while. As far as I know, most other car components don't depend on the type of motor.
      - borski 2y ago
        That is an extremely high-level statement that isn't worth making. Sure, Li-Ion batteries are generally pretty simple, and electric motors as an idea are simple. Making them work, at scale, and compete (or beat) ICE motors, while also managing to bring price down? Yeah, that takes decades of research. We've know about rubber for a really long time. It still took us many decades to make a good tire.
tomashubelbauer 2y ago
I wish someone made an EV with LFP batteries and as little software as possible, certainly no displays or a companion mobile app. Let me put an AliExpress parking camera in if I want one. Something that I can afford to own and maintain myself, without being dependent on repair shops with specialized tools or knowledge, or worse, the manufacturer, for service. Throw in a service manual with full schematics and I'll be elated.
- kube-system 2y ago
  Reverse cameras are a legal requirement in the US and some other places
  - thfuran 2y ago
    But what are the requirements on the display? Can you get away with one LED for a single pixel? That'd really let you cheap out on the camera too.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      No, the regulations do not specify technical specifications, they specify requirements in terms of actual visibility. 49 CFR 571.111 S14. specifies a test that the image must pass, and that would not pass: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.111#p-571.111(S14 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.1....)
- avidphantasm 2y ago
  Yeah, I want a modern EV that is as simple and easy to work on as a VW Bug. Can Framework make a car?
  - natch 2y ago
    Model 3 is pretty simple. You can literally hang a cloth over the screen covering it and still do pretty much everything, most of the time, if the screen bothers you. The car has a few physical hardware buttons that do what you need.
ac29 2y ago
You can get a 2-3 year old Bolt or Leaf for well under $20k (under 15, even). Sadly, both are no longer in production (though the Leaf is still on sale from the final production run).
- natch 2y ago
  Or Model 3 for $25k or Model Y for $30k.
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
This is the sodium ion battery, already scaling up mass production by CATL. The one they claim should enable a 200-300 mile city car that is fundamentally cheaper than an ICE vehicle. The materials costs are something like half of an LFP battery, and LFP batteries should be cheaper than ICEs too at scale, especially with the new generation of 200-225 wh/kg LFP batteries. The reason why they aren't available is that government, especially the US, are still being unbelievably short sighted about proactive investment in EV switchover. There should be hundreds of billions of dollars being invested to switch over to PHEVs and EVs in all consumer and a great deal of commercial transportation every year. Heck, we should have had PHEVs for all new vehicles mandated 10 years after the Prius was released in 1997, it's just that there was an oilman in the oval office. But Obama wasn't very proactive either.
- Qwertious 2y ago
  There should be hundreds of billions of dollars being invested into building out rail, and phasing down cars in every major city. Footpaths and bike lanes cost 1/100th as much as roads for cars, investing in EVs is shortsighted. EVs are better than ICE cars (mostly - I'm not sold on battery trucks and EV utility vehicles), but kerosene lamps are better than whale-oil lamps and yet both should be replaced by light bulbs as broadly and quickly as possible. Sodium batteries are cool as heck, I'd love to see them in UPSes.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    Rail simply takes too long and too much money to lay down. But e-bikes that I agree with you. Our car centric infrastructure basically makes an e-bike. Still pretty dangerous. With minimal infrastructure investment, certainly a thousandth of what would be necessary for a rail line, I said he could make a kick- ass ebike infrastructure completely separated from dangerous cars. Old rail lines are actually really good for this. They're already separated from car infrastructure. But even if you dug tunnels or elevated, a bike path still would be a lot cheaper
natch 2y ago
$251/month is unaffordable? Tesla Model 3. How about $95/month? Nissan Leaf.

Yes, eventually. They're expensive to manufacture for now, because the tech is relatively new (as compared to ICE cars). Price will come down over time.

cubefox 2y ago
New? Lithium-ion batteries are almost 50 years old, the electric motor close to 200 years. > German engineer Andreas Flocken built the first real electric car in 1888. Electric trains were also used to transport coal out of mines, as their motors did not use up precious oxygen. Before the pre-eminence of internal combustion engines, electric automobiles also held many speed and distance records. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicl...
- borski 2y ago
  I’m not suggesting we just recently invented the motor or Li-Ion battery. Modern EVs are costlier to manufacture than modern ICE cars. This is sort of indisputable; the reason for this is because of economies of scale. We know how to manufacture and build ICE cars at scale / cheap. We are still learning how to do that for EVs.
  - cubefox 2y ago
    I don't think we are learning that for electric cars, since those are based on very old technology that is not very complicated. Indeed, electric motors are far simpler than combustion motors, and lithium-ion batteries have been produced in large quantities for a while. As far as I know, most other car components don't depend on the type of motor.
    - borski 2y ago
      That is an extremely high-level statement that isn't worth making. Sure, Li-Ion batteries are generally pretty simple, and electric motors as an idea are simple. Making them work, at scale, and compete (or beat) ICE motors, while also managing to bring price down? Yeah, that takes decades of research. We've know about rubber for a really long time. It still took us many decades to make a good tire.

tomashubelbauer 2y ago

I wish someone made an EV with LFP batteries and as little software as possible, certainly no displays or a companion mobile app. Let me put an AliExpress parking camera in if I want one. Something that I can afford to own and maintain myself, without being dependent on repair shops with specialized tools or knowledge, or worse, the manufacturer, for service. Throw in a service manual with full schematics and I'll be elated.

kube-system 2y ago
Reverse cameras are a legal requirement in the US and some other places
- thfuran 2y ago
  But what are the requirements on the display? Can you get away with one LED for a single pixel? That'd really let you cheap out on the camera too.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    No, the regulations do not specify technical specifications, they specify requirements in terms of actual visibility. 49 CFR 571.111 S14. specifies a test that the image must pass, and that would not pass: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.111#p-571.111(S14 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/part-571/section-571.1....)
avidphantasm 2y ago
Yeah, I want a modern EV that is as simple and easy to work on as a VW Bug. Can Framework make a car?
- natch 2y ago
  Model 3 is pretty simple. You can literally hang a cloth over the screen covering it and still do pretty much everything, most of the time, if the screen bothers you. The car has a few physical hardware buttons that do what you need.

ac29 2y ago

You can get a 2-3 year old Bolt or Leaf for well under $20k (under 15, even). Sadly, both are no longer in production (though the Leaf is still on sale from the final production run).

natch 2y ago
Or Model 3 for $25k or Model Y for $30k.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

This is the sodium ion battery, already scaling up mass production by CATL. The one they claim should enable a 200-300 mile city car that is fundamentally cheaper than an ICE vehicle. The materials costs are something like half of an LFP battery, and LFP batteries should be cheaper than ICEs too at scale, especially with the new generation of 200-225 wh/kg LFP batteries. The reason why they aren't available is that government, especially the US, are still being unbelievably short sighted about proactive investment in EV switchover. There should be hundreds of billions of dollars being invested to switch over to PHEVs and EVs in all consumer and a great deal of commercial transportation every year. Heck, we should have had PHEVs for all new vehicles mandated 10 years after the Prius was released in 1997, it's just that there was an oilman in the oval office. But Obama wasn't very proactive either.

Qwertious 2y ago
There should be hundreds of billions of dollars being invested into building out rail, and phasing down cars in every major city. Footpaths and bike lanes cost 1/100th as much as roads for cars, investing in EVs is shortsighted. EVs are better than ICE cars (mostly - I'm not sold on battery trucks and EV utility vehicles), but kerosene lamps are better than whale-oil lamps and yet both should be replaced by light bulbs as broadly and quickly as possible. Sodium batteries are cool as heck, I'd love to see them in UPSes.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  Rail simply takes too long and too much money to lay down. But e-bikes that I agree with you. Our car centric infrastructure basically makes an e-bike. Still pretty dangerous. With minimal infrastructure investment, certainly a thousandth of what would be necessary for a rail line, I said he could make a kick- ass ebike infrastructure completely separated from dangerous cars. Old rail lines are actually really good for this. They're already separated from car infrastructure. But even if you dug tunnels or elevated, a bike path still would be a lot cheaper

natch 2y ago

$251/month is unaffordable? Tesla Model 3. How about $95/month? Nissan Leaf.