4 ms·

> 600Mi/1000KM range, 9min charging We're still doing this? Capacity by weight and volume, and efficiency per distance are much more meaningful. Charging is mo

by csours 2y ago

> 600Mi/1000KM range, 9min charging We're still doing this? Capacity by weight and volume, and efficiency per distance are much more meaningful. Charging is mostly a function of input voltage.

LtdJorge 2y ago
Yeah, there's also the: charging everytime in the 9m mode, how long does it last? Or, how much energy do you have to put in? Because the charging efficiency and lifespan change when the input voltage changes.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  The people with the money to buy these EVs probably don’t care as much. They own or lease them for 2 or 3 years then refresh.
  - Loic 2y ago
    In Germany where more than 70% of the new vehicles are bought/leased by companies over 24/36 months, you are totally right. They do not care as longevity of the battery is priced in the lease.
    - Someone 2y ago
      I don’t follow that logic. If you’re in charge of car lease contracts at a company, wouldn’t the lease price be one of the major factors in deciding whether an offer is good/in whether your boss is happy about you? On the contrary, I would think individual leasers would be more likely to make the impulse choice of “greater range, and ‘only’ costs $X a month more” than companies, who often lease dozens or more cars.
      - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
        The price would be a major factor. The state in which the battery will be in at the end of those 3 years would be a complete non-factor (because at that point it's not your problem anymore). So someone who leases like this won't need to think/worry about battery longevity, whereas someone buying will be hesitant to buy a vehicle unless they are reasonably sure that the battery will last a long time. Of course, battery degradation would likely have some influence on the lease price, but I doubt it will be a major factor.
        Someone 2y ago
        > Of course, battery degradation would likely have some influence on the lease price, but I doubt it will be a major factor. I disagree. Battery longevity hugely affects how much money the lease company can get when they sell the car after X years, so in a world of perfect information, it should have a large influence on lease price. In the real world, the lease company will have to gamble a bit. Many will choose to spread the risk by buying a spread of different cars, but they’ll still calculate expected sale price and adjust the lease price accordingly.
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    My EV has been the cheapest vehicle to own that I've ever had. 90,000 KM and I've never changed the oil, or an oil filter, or had a catalytic converter stolen, or had wet plug wires lead to a tow, or had a coil go bad, or failed emissions testing, or leaked transmission fluid. And during the time that I've owned it, I've never had to drive into a shady gas station at night. And even per-kilometer, I'm paying about 1/8 what I was paying with gasoline. That said, I did replace the tires at 70,000. And I've filled the washer fluid dozens of times. So it's not completely maintenance-free ))
    - rat9988 2y ago
      What car do you own, if you don't mind?
      - dotancohen 2y ago
        Tesla Model 3 Long Range
irdc 2y ago
Not every kind of battery chemistry tolerates high-speed charging (in fact, I’d say that most don’t) Knowing that this particular battery chemistry is not limited in that sense is very relevant to end users, who are of course the ones who have to wait for their car to be charged.
- b112 2y ago
  $5 says that these two figures were combined accidentally. For example, a full charge in 9m from 0? That's 10x faster at least, than 100% charge with current tech. Adding 3x the range would be an additional leap. Likely, someone was asked "how fast does it charge to 80%, like current batteries which take 15 tp 20 minutes?"... "9m!", and later "how much more range wouldnot have" and someone said a simple "double per weight". Still, these solid states may not need battery heaters in the cold. That's huge on its own.
ricardobeat 2y ago
EV batteries all weight in the 400-500kg range, and the volume is similar for all cars (size of the underfloor). Given that these are pretty much fixed variables, the range figure is a good measure to report on. For density it means getting close to 500Wh/kg, but that is not something most consumers can understand. Efficiency is a function of the car design and drivetrain, how would that apply to the battery itself?
enragedcacti 2y ago
Other sources are quoting 500Wh/kg, so roughly double currently available EVs. I haven't seen anything on volumetric density.
dangus 2y ago
They are just putting it into the perspective of the layperson by telling them what will actually be possible with the technology in a passenger vehicle. It’s not a big deal.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
I think for the average human, this is exactly the kind of numbers they want to hear. I don't care about the volume of my battery one bit, I care about how the car looks (and performs). This pair of numbers is relevant, because it suggests that you can do an extended road trip with the car, start early in the morning, take a brief break that you'll need anyways at a sufficiently fast fast charger, or a longer lunch break at a place that offers "normal" fast charging, and be good to drive for the rest of the day. Or if you drive conservatively, possibly make an "all day" long trip (7-8 hours of driving) without needing to charge on the way at all. Also, 9 minutes puts it into the "stop for refueling" rather than "extended break" territory, eliminating one of the major issues people worry about when considering whether to get an EV or not.

by csours 2y ago

> 600Mi/1000KM range, 9min charging We're still doing this? Capacity by weight and volume, and efficiency per distance are much more meaningful. Charging is mostly a function of input voltage.

LtdJorge 2y ago

Yeah, there's also the: charging everytime in the 9m mode, how long does it last? Or, how much energy do you have to put in? Because the charging efficiency and lifespan change when the input voltage changes.

SkyPuncher 2y ago
The people with the money to buy these EVs probably don’t care as much. They own or lease them for 2 or 3 years then refresh.
- Loic 2y ago
  In Germany where more than 70% of the new vehicles are bought/leased by companies over 24/36 months, you are totally right. They do not care as longevity of the battery is priced in the lease.
  - Someone 2y ago
    I don’t follow that logic. If you’re in charge of car lease contracts at a company, wouldn’t the lease price be one of the major factors in deciding whether an offer is good/in whether your boss is happy about you? On the contrary, I would think individual leasers would be more likely to make the impulse choice of “greater range, and ‘only’ costs $X a month more” than companies, who often lease dozens or more cars.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
      The price would be a major factor. The state in which the battery will be in at the end of those 3 years would be a complete non-factor (because at that point it's not your problem anymore). So someone who leases like this won't need to think/worry about battery longevity, whereas someone buying will be hesitant to buy a vehicle unless they are reasonably sure that the battery will last a long time. Of course, battery degradation would likely have some influence on the lease price, but I doubt it will be a major factor.
      - Someone 2y ago
        > Of course, battery degradation would likely have some influence on the lease price, but I doubt it will be a major factor. I disagree. Battery longevity hugely affects how much money the lease company can get when they sell the car after X years, so in a world of perfect information, it should have a large influence on lease price. In the real world, the lease company will have to gamble a bit. Many will choose to spread the risk by buying a spread of different cars, but they’ll still calculate expected sale price and adjust the lease price accordingly.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  My EV has been the cheapest vehicle to own that I've ever had. 90,000 KM and I've never changed the oil, or an oil filter, or had a catalytic converter stolen, or had wet plug wires lead to a tow, or had a coil go bad, or failed emissions testing, or leaked transmission fluid. And during the time that I've owned it, I've never had to drive into a shady gas station at night. And even per-kilometer, I'm paying about 1/8 what I was paying with gasoline. That said, I did replace the tires at 70,000. And I've filled the washer fluid dozens of times. So it's not completely maintenance-free ))
  - rat9988 2y ago
    What car do you own, if you don't mind?
    - dotancohen 2y ago
      Tesla Model 3 Long Range

irdc 2y ago

Not every kind of battery chemistry tolerates high-speed charging (in fact, I’d say that most don’t) Knowing that this particular battery chemistry is not limited in that sense is very relevant to end users, who are of course the ones who have to wait for their car to be charged.

b112 2y ago
$5 says that these two figures were combined accidentally. For example, a full charge in 9m from 0? That's 10x faster at least, than 100% charge with current tech. Adding 3x the range would be an additional leap. Likely, someone was asked "how fast does it charge to 80%, like current batteries which take 15 tp 20 minutes?"... "9m!", and later "how much more range wouldnot have" and someone said a simple "double per weight". Still, these solid states may not need battery heaters in the cold. That's huge on its own.

ricardobeat 2y ago

EV batteries all weight in the 400-500kg range, and the volume is similar for all cars (size of the underfloor). Given that these are pretty much fixed variables, the range figure is a good measure to report on. For density it means getting close to 500Wh/kg, but that is not something most consumers can understand. Efficiency is a function of the car design and drivetrain, how would that apply to the battery itself?

enragedcacti 2y ago

Other sources are quoting 500Wh/kg, so roughly double currently available EVs. I haven't seen anything on volumetric density.

dangus 2y ago

They are just putting it into the perspective of the layperson by telling them what will actually be possible with the technology in a passenger vehicle. It’s not a big deal.

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago

I think for the average human, this is exactly the kind of numbers they want to hear. I don't care about the volume of my battery one bit, I care about how the car looks (and performs). This pair of numbers is relevant, because it suggests that you can do an extended road trip with the car, start early in the morning, take a brief break that you'll need anyways at a sufficiently fast fast charger, or a longer lunch break at a place that offers "normal" fast charging, and be good to drive for the rest of the day. Or if you drive conservatively, possibly make an "all day" long trip (7-8 hours of driving) without needing to charge on the way at all. Also, 9 minutes puts it into the "stop for refueling" rather than "extended break" territory, eliminating one of the major issues people worry about when considering whether to get an EV or not.