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You’d feel different if it were you getting stiffed payment! After reading the further responses, I am convinced that DEF CON is kind of a crummy business. Thi

You’d feel different if it were you getting stiffed payment! After reading the further responses, I am convinced that DEF CON is kind of a crummy business. This commenter, who does not deserve to be downvoted, and the vendor were both stiffed by DEF CON. There seems to be a lot of drama attached to this organization that unfairly rubs off on its well meaning collaborators. In the interest of curiosity, I wonder why IT organizations built on the free contributions of others can ever treat their collaborators indelicately. It would be one thing if DEF CON were some superstar artist, where taking the kid gloves off and delivering harsh feedback is part of the learning process, but it’s just a conference organizer.

tptacek 2y ago
Who, Dmitry? Dmitry had no arrangement with DEF CON. Entropic? I've been (I think!) where Entropic has been many times, and you've never read about any of them because, like most professionals, I didn't make a huge stink about it.
- threatofrain 2y ago
  If Dmitry had no arrangement with defcon, why was he invited (looks like consideration), and why did he do work after the request to stop work? Dmitry maintains that he was not doing contractual work for Entropic. Was anything ever written down on paper with regards to Dmitry's relationship to anything?
  - tptacek 2y ago
    You tell me. The DEF CON badge thing is deeply cringe to me.
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    Nothing was ever on paper between me and anyone.
- adw 2y ago
  Is it reasonable to expect better of a prominent institution like DEFCON than from some other typical company?
  - tptacek 2y ago
    No. I have been in (minor, our fault, it all worked out, though not the way I wanted it to) commercial disputes with this organization in the past. They are not fucking around. Look, I've got two things going on with this whole story: First, it's pretty clear that Dmitry (a name I know only from HN from the past couple days) deliberately arranged the showdown with the Goons. He got what he wanted. Nobody should be clutching pearls about his experience on the stage. Second, while none of us know the particulars of Entropic's contracts with DEF CON, and we could still learn new stuff that would make it clear DEF CON is in the wrong, there are a lot of people on HN that are trying to (or aspire to) consulting, and there is something very important to learn from what's happening here: you do not want to do what Entropic did and pick a fight with your client, because (1) you're probably not experiencing something that is that out of the norm for consulting and (2) other prospective clients are absolutely going to take notice.
    - threatofrain 2y ago
      From what I understand... it's possible that while Dmitry may have wanted to help Entropic, what ended up happening is Dmitry burned bridges for Entropic. Entropic by now has no choice but to come out with a statement since from their perspective, Defcon was already throwing their name under the bus, basically saying Entropic exercised bad faith and incompetence.
    - doctorpangloss 2y ago
      > They are not fucking around. How would you feel that reading that line of yours made my eyes roll? You’re mocking this guy for creating drama, then you go and say these conference organizers are some dramatic hyperbole. “The only valid drama is my drama.” It’s the pot calling the kettle black!
      - 2y ago
- _7tgr 2y ago
  This does not seem like a standard way to conduct business to me by any stretch of the imagination, though I don't work in cybersecurity. Perhaps that community just has lower standards to which people and organizations are held. Would not be surprised. The things I've heard from that corner of the industry....
  - fortran77 2y ago
    DEFCON has a lot of young, inexperienced people. That leads to a magnification of all sorts of drama. (I've been to 12 DEFCONs, sat it out this year.)
gizmo686 2y ago
> You’d feel different if it were you getting stiffed payment! What? Getting stiffed payments is probably the leading cause of "vendors with a contract dispute". Go to your lawyer (you do have a laywer, right?) and have them nicely ask for the money before starting a lawsuit for it plus the contractually specified penalties. Unlike a lot of non-paying customers, DEFCON probably has money, so you can rest relatively easy knowing you will see it (plus penalties) eventually. If DEFCON was planning on spending that money someplace else, that is their problem, not yours.

tptacek 2y ago

Who, Dmitry? Dmitry had no arrangement with DEF CON. Entropic? I've been (I think!) where Entropic has been many times, and you've never read about any of them because, like most professionals, I didn't make a huge stink about it.

threatofrain 2y ago
If Dmitry had no arrangement with defcon, why was he invited (looks like consideration), and why did he do work after the request to stop work? Dmitry maintains that he was not doing contractual work for Entropic. Was anything ever written down on paper with regards to Dmitry's relationship to anything?
- tptacek 2y ago
  You tell me. The DEF CON badge thing is deeply cringe to me.
- dmitrygr 2y ago
  Nothing was ever on paper between me and anyone.
adw 2y ago
Is it reasonable to expect better of a prominent institution like DEFCON than from some other typical company?
- tptacek 2y ago
  No. I have been in (minor, our fault, it all worked out, though not the way I wanted it to) commercial disputes with this organization in the past. They are not fucking around. Look, I've got two things going on with this whole story: First, it's pretty clear that Dmitry (a name I know only from HN from the past couple days) deliberately arranged the showdown with the Goons. He got what he wanted. Nobody should be clutching pearls about his experience on the stage. Second, while none of us know the particulars of Entropic's contracts with DEF CON, and we could still learn new stuff that would make it clear DEF CON is in the wrong, there are a lot of people on HN that are trying to (or aspire to) consulting, and there is something very important to learn from what's happening here: you do not want to do what Entropic did and pick a fight with your client, because (1) you're probably not experiencing something that is that out of the norm for consulting and (2) other prospective clients are absolutely going to take notice.
  - threatofrain 2y ago
    From what I understand... it's possible that while Dmitry may have wanted to help Entropic, what ended up happening is Dmitry burned bridges for Entropic. Entropic by now has no choice but to come out with a statement since from their perspective, Defcon was already throwing their name under the bus, basically saying Entropic exercised bad faith and incompetence.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    > They are not fucking around. How would you feel that reading that line of yours made my eyes roll? You’re mocking this guy for creating drama, then you go and say these conference organizers are some dramatic hyperbole. “The only valid drama is my drama.” It’s the pot calling the kettle black!
    - 2y ago
_7tgr 2y ago
This does not seem like a standard way to conduct business to me by any stretch of the imagination, though I don't work in cybersecurity. Perhaps that community just has lower standards to which people and organizations are held. Would not be surprised. The things I've heard from that corner of the industry....
- fortran77 2y ago
  DEFCON has a lot of young, inexperienced people. That leads to a magnification of all sorts of drama. (I've been to 12 DEFCONs, sat it out this year.)

gizmo686 2y ago

> You’d feel different if it were you getting stiffed payment! What? Getting stiffed payments is probably the leading cause of "vendors with a contract dispute". Go to your lawyer (you do have a laywer, right?) and have them nicely ask for the money before starting a lawsuit for it plus the contractually specified penalties. Unlike a lot of non-paying customers, DEFCON probably has money, so you can rest relatively easy knowing you will see it (plus penalties) eventually. If DEFCON was planning on spending that money someplace else, that is their problem, not yours.