3 ms·

It's a private event on private property. There is no inherent right to be there, especially up on stage without invitation (TFA mentions this was what happene

It's a private event on private property. There is no inherent right to be there, especially up on stage without invitation (TFA mentions this was what happened).

neilv 2y ago
I'm wondering how the organizers of an event cover all the bases sufficiently on something like that. I'm asking out of curiosity about how that actually works, in practice, not what arguments we could imagine. (For example: Say, someone rushes up on stage during a rock music concert. Was removal covered in the fine print terms of the ticket? Are the security personnel deputized by local law enforcement? Are there special ordinances applying to security at some kinds of events? Do the event organizers fall back on the claim that they felt safety was threatened? Do the event organizers think any risk of penalties or lawsuit is less than the cost of disrupting the event? Does setting precedent for response also factor into the calculus? How is insurance and venue contracts involved? Etc. There's a some related history, involving the Hell's Angels at a concert, but I don't know how practice has evolved since then.)
- lukan 2y ago
  I only know german law from a short time as a security, but I assume it is quite similar: Cops do not want to be called for every bouncer action. The owner (or the one renting the property) has legal rights and set the rules. You break the rules, by beeing somewhere you are not supposed to be - any staff member can act as security to physically remove you. They may not beat you, though. Or otherwise act escalating. But forcefully leading (or carrying) out someone breaking the house rules (by using minimum of violence) is legal and standard procesure on every big event.
- NegativeK 2y ago
  Hell no they're not deputized. America relevant: It's similar to security anywhere, including "loss prevention" at a grocery store. They can tell you to leave, and if you don't, they can physically remove you from the property. That's pretty well established. It also applies to kicking someone out of your house that doesn't have a right to be there. If they hurt you inappropriately (there's a wide range between a trespasser bruising their fist on a guard's face and a guard holding someone down and pummeling them for no reason), they've committed a crime and might lose a civil lawsuit. Some places won't let guards touch trespassers. Other places lean on discretion and the training they've given to the guard, the cameras they have spammed everywhere, etc. The removal is usually covered in something like "we have the right to kick you out at any time, even if you paid." That doesn't cover all bases, but it covers a lot. If you never signed a contract with a venue, the removal is covered by the fact that you have zero intrinsic right to be there. For more examples, you can look at casinos in Vegas trespassing people. If you act out of line or gamble in a way they don't like (like successfully counting cards at blackjack,) they'll boot you. They might spread your name to other casinos if they really don't like you. And if you enter one again, it's criminal trespass. They can do it for anything that isn't legally protected.
  - digi59404 2y ago
    This isn’t 100% true. Security in Nevada and California are licensed and have what’s known as “powers to arrest”. They can not grab you and physically remove you. This is called battery and it’s illegal. You can actually be charged with a crime as a security officer for this. Along with fined and lose your license. What actually happens is them physically restraining you is a form of citizens arrest. They then hold you and call police to take you. The issue with trespassing is it can only be charged if the individual continually refuses to leave. This means the moment they choose to leave, you must let them. If in the act of being arrested they fight or assault people. They can be arrested for that. If they are violating the peace or committing another crime, they can be arrested for that. However if it’s SOLELY trespassing. The moment they agree to leave; you need to let them leave. The casinos do have police officers inside them and some security officers ARE deputized. A security officer can have powers to arrest as a security officer and powers to arrest as a police officer. They are entirely different things and have different levels of responsibility and liability.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > Say, someone rushes up on stage during a rock music concert. Was removal covered in the fine print terms of the ticket? Certainly, and usually in broad terms, like "event security may remove any person from the premises for any reason they believe is necessary to ensure the security and safety of the event". Once designated agents of the owners of the venue have told you to leave, you are illegally trespassing if you stay.

It's a private event on private property. There is no inherent right to be there, especially up on stage without invitation (TFA mentions this was what happened).

neilv 2y ago

I'm wondering how the organizers of an event cover all the bases sufficiently on something like that. I'm asking out of curiosity about how that actually works, in practice, not what arguments we could imagine. (For example: Say, someone rushes up on stage during a rock music concert. Was removal covered in the fine print terms of the ticket? Are the security personnel deputized by local law enforcement? Are there special ordinances applying to security at some kinds of events? Do the event organizers fall back on the claim that they felt safety was threatened? Do the event organizers think any risk of penalties or lawsuit is less than the cost of disrupting the event? Does setting precedent for response also factor into the calculus? How is insurance and venue contracts involved? Etc. There's a some related history, involving the Hell's Angels at a concert, but I don't know how practice has evolved since then.)

lukan 2y ago
I only know german law from a short time as a security, but I assume it is quite similar: Cops do not want to be called for every bouncer action. The owner (or the one renting the property) has legal rights and set the rules. You break the rules, by beeing somewhere you are not supposed to be - any staff member can act as security to physically remove you. They may not beat you, though. Or otherwise act escalating. But forcefully leading (or carrying) out someone breaking the house rules (by using minimum of violence) is legal and standard procesure on every big event.
NegativeK 2y ago
Hell no they're not deputized. America relevant: It's similar to security anywhere, including "loss prevention" at a grocery store. They can tell you to leave, and if you don't, they can physically remove you from the property. That's pretty well established. It also applies to kicking someone out of your house that doesn't have a right to be there. If they hurt you inappropriately (there's a wide range between a trespasser bruising their fist on a guard's face and a guard holding someone down and pummeling them for no reason), they've committed a crime and might lose a civil lawsuit. Some places won't let guards touch trespassers. Other places lean on discretion and the training they've given to the guard, the cameras they have spammed everywhere, etc. The removal is usually covered in something like "we have the right to kick you out at any time, even if you paid." That doesn't cover all bases, but it covers a lot. If you never signed a contract with a venue, the removal is covered by the fact that you have zero intrinsic right to be there. For more examples, you can look at casinos in Vegas trespassing people. If you act out of line or gamble in a way they don't like (like successfully counting cards at blackjack,) they'll boot you. They might spread your name to other casinos if they really don't like you. And if you enter one again, it's criminal trespass. They can do it for anything that isn't legally protected.
- digi59404 2y ago
  This isn’t 100% true. Security in Nevada and California are licensed and have what’s known as “powers to arrest”. They can not grab you and physically remove you. This is called battery and it’s illegal. You can actually be charged with a crime as a security officer for this. Along with fined and lose your license. What actually happens is them physically restraining you is a form of citizens arrest. They then hold you and call police to take you. The issue with trespassing is it can only be charged if the individual continually refuses to leave. This means the moment they choose to leave, you must let them. If in the act of being arrested they fight or assault people. They can be arrested for that. If they are violating the peace or committing another crime, they can be arrested for that. However if it’s SOLELY trespassing. The moment they agree to leave; you need to let them leave. The casinos do have police officers inside them and some security officers ARE deputized. A security officer can have powers to arrest as a security officer and powers to arrest as a police officer. They are entirely different things and have different levels of responsibility and liability.
kelnos 2y ago
> Say, someone rushes up on stage during a rock music concert. Was removal covered in the fine print terms of the ticket? Certainly, and usually in broad terms, like "event security may remove any person from the premises for any reason they believe is necessary to ensure the security and safety of the event". Once designated agents of the owners of the venue have told you to leave, you are illegally trespassing if you stay.