5 ms·

If you were in charge of reforming the legal system, what would you adopt from the Chinese system?

noxs 2y ago
1. Legal assistant (free) is mandatory for every single registered lawyer in China that they have to finish a certain quota every year. 2. Judges in China tend to ask plantiff to negotiate with defendant instead of going through a whole lawsuit process for civil cases.
- gruez 2y ago
  >2. Judges in China tend to ask plantiff to negotiate with defendant instead of going through a whole lawsuit process for civil cases. That happens in the US as well. Judges can refer cases to mediation before trial. https://www.commerciallitigationupdate.com/what-to-do-when-your-case-gets-referred-to-mediation https://www.commerciallitigationupdate.com/what-to-do-when-y...
A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
In the US, it takes ages to get your case before a judge for review. They typically won't rule on Motions for Summary Judgment until the "discovery" process is complete -- and discovery has become the most time-consuming and expensive part of any civil case. So you're down hundreds of thousands of dollars before you even have your first chance to tell the judge that the other side has no case. (You can file a Motion to Dismiss before discovery, but the bar is fairly high on those, and they're rarely granted.) Imagine a contract case where the issues are in plain text, black and white, but the Judge won't even look at the contract until the process of discovery is complete and you've racked up a year's worth of legal bills. This is an interesting read, and things have gotten no better since 1987; they've gotten much worse: https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1150&context=jdr https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art... In China, I don't believe that there was any discovery process -- perhaps there was something that the lawyers did behind the scenes, but it was certainly nothing like it is in America. Cases go before judges fast, and then they go to trial fast, and they generate less useless paper. (And fewer billable hours.) It can be as little as 6 months from start to finish.
- smsm42 2y ago
  > You can file a Motion to Dismiss before discovery, but the bar is fairly high on those, and they're rarely granted I don't think this is true. Cases - especially frivolous ones - are dismissed all the time, and usually on Motion to Dismiss stage before discovery. And it's usually a judge that decides whether a case has enough potential merit to survive the motion, so saying a judge doesn't get to see the case until after discovery is incorrect.
  - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
    IIRC, only about 20-30% of Federal Civil cases are dismissed before discovery, and I'd say the majority of those are frivolous or nuisance lawsuits, and many of 'em filed by vexatious private litigants. If a company like Amazon sues you via its attorneys -- even if the matter is at root frivolous or even if they're just trying to bully you -- your odds of getting off the hook before discovery are pretty much zero. ...As in OP, where it appears the civil suit did go to discovery even though it looks like an open-and-shut contract matter. > And it's usually a judge that decides whether a case has enough potential merit to survive the motion, so saying a judge doesn't get to see the case until after discovery is incorrect. The courts can dismiss a case prior to discovery only in certain circumstances. They are: (1) lack of subject-matter jurisdiction; (2) lack of personal jurisdiction; (3) improper venue; (4) insufficient process; (5) insufficient service of process; (6) failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted; and (7) failure to join a party. The judge will only look at these matters, and will not judge the case on its merits. A lot of cases are dismissed on "failure to state a claim" because the complaints weren't properly written.
- gruez 2y ago
  >In China, I don't believe that there was any discovery process -- perhaps there was something that the lawyers did behind the scenes, but it was certainly nothing like it is in America. Cases go before judges fast, and then they go to trial fast, and they generate less useless paper. (And fewer billable hours.) It can be as little as 6 months from start to finish. The purpose of discovery is to turn up evidence relevant to the trial. That seems... pretty important. The Chinese approach might be faster, but with less evidence before the court, you're arguably making justice worse in the process, by preventing all evidence from being shown to the courts.
silexia 2y ago
I have not been involved in Chinese legal cases, but I've been involved in several US legal cases at various levels. I would recommend more tiers in the small claims system. So under $10k, both sides present to judge 10 minutes each and a decision is given. No depositions other than questions at trial by judge. $10-100k both sides present to a judge for up to 100 minutes. This can be a sped up version of each side presenting then getting turns to rebut and the judge asking questions. Online depositions, max half a day. Then a decision. $100k- $1m 3 days or less of trial. Regular discovery questions, max one day of depositions. $3m or higher... Regular civil trials.

noxs 2y ago

1. Legal assistant (free) is mandatory for every single registered lawyer in China that they have to finish a certain quota every year. 2. Judges in China tend to ask plantiff to negotiate with defendant instead of going through a whole lawsuit process for civil cases.

gruez 2y ago
>2. Judges in China tend to ask plantiff to negotiate with defendant instead of going through a whole lawsuit process for civil cases. That happens in the US as well. Judges can refer cases to mediation before trial. https://www.commerciallitigationupdate.com/what-to-do-when-your-case-gets-referred-to-mediation https://www.commerciallitigationupdate.com/what-to-do-when-y...

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago

In the US, it takes ages to get your case before a judge for review. They typically won't rule on Motions for Summary Judgment until the "discovery" process is complete -- and discovery has become the most time-consuming and expensive part of any civil case. So you're down hundreds of thousands of dollars before you even have your first chance to tell the judge that the other side has no case. (You can file a Motion to Dismiss before discovery, but the bar is fairly high on those, and they're rarely granted.) Imagine a contract case where the issues are in plain text, black and white, but the Judge won't even look at the contract until the process of discovery is complete and you've racked up a year's worth of legal bills. This is an interesting read, and things have gotten no better since 1987; they've gotten much worse: https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1150&context=jdr https://scholarship.law.missouri.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art... In China, I don't believe that there was any discovery process -- perhaps there was something that the lawyers did behind the scenes, but it was certainly nothing like it is in America. Cases go before judges fast, and then they go to trial fast, and they generate less useless paper. (And fewer billable hours.) It can be as little as 6 months from start to finish.

smsm42 2y ago
> You can file a Motion to Dismiss before discovery, but the bar is fairly high on those, and they're rarely granted I don't think this is true. Cases - especially frivolous ones - are dismissed all the time, and usually on Motion to Dismiss stage before discovery. And it's usually a judge that decides whether a case has enough potential merit to survive the motion, so saying a judge doesn't get to see the case until after discovery is incorrect.
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  IIRC, only about 20-30% of Federal Civil cases are dismissed before discovery, and I'd say the majority of those are frivolous or nuisance lawsuits, and many of 'em filed by vexatious private litigants. If a company like Amazon sues you via its attorneys -- even if the matter is at root frivolous or even if they're just trying to bully you -- your odds of getting off the hook before discovery are pretty much zero. ...As in OP, where it appears the civil suit did go to discovery even though it looks like an open-and-shut contract matter. > And it's usually a judge that decides whether a case has enough potential merit to survive the motion, so saying a judge doesn't get to see the case until after discovery is incorrect. The courts can dismiss a case prior to discovery only in certain circumstances. They are: (1) lack of subject-matter jurisdiction; (2) lack of personal jurisdiction; (3) improper venue; (4) insufficient process; (5) insufficient service of process; (6) failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted; and (7) failure to join a party. The judge will only look at these matters, and will not judge the case on its merits. A lot of cases are dismissed on "failure to state a claim" because the complaints weren't properly written.
gruez 2y ago
>In China, I don't believe that there was any discovery process -- perhaps there was something that the lawyers did behind the scenes, but it was certainly nothing like it is in America. Cases go before judges fast, and then they go to trial fast, and they generate less useless paper. (And fewer billable hours.) It can be as little as 6 months from start to finish. The purpose of discovery is to turn up evidence relevant to the trial. That seems... pretty important. The Chinese approach might be faster, but with less evidence before the court, you're arguably making justice worse in the process, by preventing all evidence from being shown to the courts.

silexia 2y ago

I have not been involved in Chinese legal cases, but I've been involved in several US legal cases at various levels. I would recommend more tiers in the small claims system. So under $10k, both sides present to judge 10 minutes each and a decision is given. No depositions other than questions at trial by judge. $10-100k both sides present to a judge for up to 100 minutes. This can be a sped up version of each side presenting then getting turns to rebut and the judge asking questions. Online depositions, max half a day. Then a decision. $100k- $1m 3 days or less of trial. Regular discovery questions, max one day of depositions. $3m or higher... Regular civil trials.