3 ms·

> you feel depressed because of your brain chemistry, not because of your circumstances. Would that it were so simple. Circumstances can, of course, impact bra

by rexpop 2y ago

> you feel depressed because of your brain chemistry, not because of your circumstances. Would that it were so simple. Circumstances can, of course, impact brain chemistry and, over time, neural architecture. Classic example is the learned helplessness of rats[0]. In this context, we know the cause of the depression, because it's the independent variable of our experiment! Is it irrational to project the his framing to learned helplessness or "psychomotor retardation" in the wild? > the cause is really just weird brain stuff Is it weird or is it evolutionarily selected for? > it’s an aberrant behavior Is it abberant or is it consequent? You may benefit from the perspective of Sapolsky's (now 14 year old) lecture on the basics of depression[1] in which he asserts that it's a response to repeated trauma. 0. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376635710002901 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037663571... 1. https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc https://youtu.be/NOAgplgTxfc

hirako2000 2y ago
Even just entertaining the idea, that depression is a response from healthy individuals, cannot be tolerated.
- rented_mule 2y ago
  What does it mean to be a "health individual"? If it means being completely invulnerable to any decline in health, then you're 100% correct. But only the immortal fit that description. Soldiers going into battle are among the most physically healthy individuals on earth. And the military would tell us that they are in good mental health or they wouldn't give them control of weapons. Far too many come out of the experience with extreme mental health challenges, even if they remain physically healthy. It's easy to imagine that one path to depression is a spiral where challenging circumstances lead to slightly weaker mental health, which increases vulnerability to challenging circumstances, repeat. It's especially easy for me to imagine because I ran down that spiral before, and for decades after, my depression set in. Part of the immense difficulty of recovery for me is the painful crawl back up that spiral, processing the old challenges as I go, all under the guidance of a trained professional.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Your statement is ambiguous, since it confuses "health in totality" versus "a healthy response" to other causes. Compare: "Entertaining the idea that [screaming] is a response from healthy individuals cannot be tolerated." Obviously, such a statement would be a dramatic overreach. * Screaming because a rubber snake was thrown at your face? That's actually a very healthy response, in the short term. * Screaming because you got stabbed in the leg with a fork? Also a healthy response, but you'll need to get that unhealthy leg looked at. * Screaming because you just won the lottery? Healthy response, just questionable financial skills. * Screaming for no apparent reason? ... Probably not a healthy response. Anyway, at this point we do not know enough about depression to conclusively declare that it is never serving any adaptive purpose. It would be a shame if the fork-stabbing patient were to be "treated" by sticking a syringe of muscle-relaxant into their voicebox.
  - rexpop 2y ago
    > Screaming for no apparent reason Possibly a rubber snake that's not immediately obvious to others.
- rexpop 2y ago
  "Cannot be tolerated" by whom, Mr. Passive Voice? Or did you mean should not be tolerated? What a bizarre reaction.
  - hirako2000 2y ago
    My view is that depression isn't a disease. It is quite like a fever. it's a natural response to the human condition, triggered by external factors. Commonly by social complications. Difficulties faced by the individual suffering it, but not always. Simply witnessing certain actions and behaviors can lead to depression. If depression is to be an illness, then we are all sick. A mechanism forcing us, with extreme pain, to deal with social challenges we face, seem rather useful. Like a fever, it can kill us. But unlike a fever,it's not a few mild pills and a week of patience. It's for years or for life. Typically until the root cause is solved. Depression is not some internal defect that suddenly manifests. It’s a reaction to the circumstances and conditions of life, typically those imposed by the complexities of human interaction. The downvotes and responses demonstrate what I meant. Anyhow, it is my view after 20 years pondering the subject. I'm not a doctor, but I don't charge for my opinion. Everyone is free and encouraged to adopt the psychiatrists perspective. My comment was about the fact we are hardly free to adopt the non "medical" view.
    - rexpop 2y ago
      I agree with your point. I think your original phrasing implied the literal opposite of your intended meaning.

by rexpop 2y ago

hirako2000 2y ago

Even just entertaining the idea, that depression is a response from healthy individuals, cannot be tolerated.

rented_mule 2y ago
What does it mean to be a "health individual"? If it means being completely invulnerable to any decline in health, then you're 100% correct. But only the immortal fit that description. Soldiers going into battle are among the most physically healthy individuals on earth. And the military would tell us that they are in good mental health or they wouldn't give them control of weapons. Far too many come out of the experience with extreme mental health challenges, even if they remain physically healthy. It's easy to imagine that one path to depression is a spiral where challenging circumstances lead to slightly weaker mental health, which increases vulnerability to challenging circumstances, repeat. It's especially easy for me to imagine because I ran down that spiral before, and for decades after, my depression set in. Part of the immense difficulty of recovery for me is the painful crawl back up that spiral, processing the old challenges as I go, all under the guidance of a trained professional.
Terr_ 2y ago
Your statement is ambiguous, since it confuses "health in totality" versus "a healthy response" to other causes. Compare: "Entertaining the idea that [screaming] is a response from healthy individuals cannot be tolerated." Obviously, such a statement would be a dramatic overreach. * Screaming because a rubber snake was thrown at your face? That's actually a very healthy response, in the short term. * Screaming because you got stabbed in the leg with a fork? Also a healthy response, but you'll need to get that unhealthy leg looked at. * Screaming because you just won the lottery? Healthy response, just questionable financial skills. * Screaming for no apparent reason? ... Probably not a healthy response. Anyway, at this point we do not know enough about depression to conclusively declare that it is never serving any adaptive purpose. It would be a shame if the fork-stabbing patient were to be "treated" by sticking a syringe of muscle-relaxant into their voicebox.
- rexpop 2y ago
  > Screaming for no apparent reason Possibly a rubber snake that's not immediately obvious to others.
rexpop 2y ago
"Cannot be tolerated" by whom, Mr. Passive Voice? Or did you mean should not be tolerated? What a bizarre reaction.
- hirako2000 2y ago
  My view is that depression isn't a disease. It is quite like a fever. it's a natural response to the human condition, triggered by external factors. Commonly by social complications. Difficulties faced by the individual suffering it, but not always. Simply witnessing certain actions and behaviors can lead to depression. If depression is to be an illness, then we are all sick. A mechanism forcing us, with extreme pain, to deal with social challenges we face, seem rather useful. Like a fever, it can kill us. But unlike a fever,it's not a few mild pills and a week of patience. It's for years or for life. Typically until the root cause is solved. Depression is not some internal defect that suddenly manifests. It’s a reaction to the circumstances and conditions of life, typically those imposed by the complexities of human interaction. The downvotes and responses demonstrate what I meant. Anyhow, it is my view after 20 years pondering the subject. I'm not a doctor, but I don't charge for my opinion. Everyone is free and encouraged to adopt the psychiatrists perspective. My comment was about the fact we are hardly free to adopt the non "medical" view.
  - rexpop 2y ago
    I agree with your point. I think your original phrasing implied the literal opposite of your intended meaning.