6 ms·

The legacy car makers have flirted with 48V components for decades but haven't been willing to do the hard work to realize all the benefits it brings. The germa

The legacy car makers have flirted with 48V components for decades but haven't been willing to do the hard work to realize all the benefits it brings. The germans in particular are stuck in limbo. For their PHEV and BEV cars they are shipping 12V for all traditional functions, 48V for advanced functions like active suspension and anti-roll bars, and high voltage systems for the traction motor. Complete mess. It's frustrating to be a Tesla owner. For every great engineering choice they make like going all in on 48V they make a user hostile choice like removing stalks and selling "full self driving" that is downright dangerous.

jvanderbot 2y ago
The single most frustrating thing Tesla did re: Power was not allowing me to plug an appliance in. We lose power somewhat regularly where I live due to storms, and the tesla has 6-10 days of my household power budget sitting in its banks. Just let me plug in a deep freezer and coffee maker, please. INB4 the 12V terminals: They are hard to access, have limited amps, and are a separate crappy battery.
- trainsarebetter 2y ago
  For sure, but the economics don’t work out for the earlier Bev battery chemistry’s. The additional cycle where from v2x don’t justify it, getting a power wall just makes more sense in the long run. But I still agree the option should be there for emergencies
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    The thing is, Tesla is the only large battery I can put in my house, according to local regulations (I can get solar+battery, but the solar provider terms in my area are garbage, and I can only sell power to local company and get credits for later use. I can't actually store it). This is a disruption opportunity wasted.
postalrat 2y ago
Adding one additional voltage doesn't turn something from elegant to a complete mess. I don't know why you mentioned the traction motor voltage as part of the mess. Do you want hundreds of volts DC running all over the car?
throwaway48476 2y ago
The problem is for the whole industry to go 48V costs money and whoever pays will also benefit the competition because everyone has the same suppliers. There needs to be some kind of industry regulation that says by so and so date everything had to be 48V.
katzinsky 2y ago
In my homebrew BEV I've started just using AC for most smaller things. It's easier than finding 48v components, the connectors are nicer than 12v (I've really come to hate cigarette lighter plugs) the high voltage means the conductors can be small and the zero crossing means the switches can be much cheaper too. And being able to find replacement parts at the dollar store no matter where you are is really great.
samatman 2y ago
> selling "full self driving" that is downright dangerous. Is there evidence of this, at this point? I haven't looked into it in several years, but back then, Teslas were getting in fewer accidents per driver mile than average. I would think given that there's a faction of the public, and especially of the activist public, who are hostile to Tesla/Musk, that if FSD is in fact more dangerous (which would mean more accidents per driver mile), there would be a good URL you could provide us which makes that case using the available statistics on the subject. Because it's an entirely empirical question. Anyone can argue from first principles in either direction, but one of two things are the reality: either FSD driver miles are less prone to accident than average, or they're more so. I suppose it could be precisely at 50%, as well.
- mrgoldenbrown 2y ago
  It may be an empirical question, but as long as Tesla insists on keeping the raw data secret, it's reasonable to suspect their conclusions/claims https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/tesla-autopilot-crash-investigation-997b0129 https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/tesla-autopilot-crash-inv...
- toast0 2y ago
  To do proper statistical analysis, you'd need to compare miles driven with FSD to miles driven by humans in similar conditions. That's not the easiest thing to do. Tesla had occasionaly released statistics with their earlier driver assistance technology, but without enough detail to form informative comparisons. Based on past experience, I don't expect Tesla to provide meaningful statistical data or to allow outside access to their raw data (which fwiw, seems like a huge privacy risk to collect), so I don't think we'll have an empirical result unless there's discovery for a lawsuit.
- theluketaylor 2y ago
  Extensive analysis of Tesla and NHTSA crash reporting (some by NHTSA themselves) shows that autopilot and fsd do not have significantly better safety outcomes than manual drivers or drivers aided by other non-tesla assistance systems. This NHTSA report is pretty damning about Tesla's cavalier attitude towards the design of safe systems. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2023/04/26/tesla-again-paints-a-very-misleading-story-with-their-crash-data/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2023/04/26/tesla-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-tesla-autopilot-statistics-show-its-almost-as-safe-driving-with-it-as-without/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-te... https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-risky-deaths-crashes-nhtsa-investigation/ https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-risky-deaths-cra...
hulitu 2y ago
> The legacy car makers have flirted with 48V components for decades but haven't been willing to do the hard work to realize all the benefits it brings Can you name some benefits ? ICs working at 48 V are expensive and hard to find.
- brianwawok 2y ago
  Massively smaller wires and higher powered accessories
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  That's why DC/DC converters exist. Only the things that can take 48v (and associated voltage spikes) get exposed to it.
- stephen_g 2y ago
  Power ICs operating at 48V are common and cheap, because things like telco have been using 48V DC for decades. In terms of things like digital ICs, well they have never worked at 12V either. You have a step down converter to produce the 3.3 V, 1.8 V etc. rails they need.
grecy 2y ago
As well as 48v they also went to Ethernet for device comma, drastically reducing the amount of wiring

jvanderbot 2y ago

The single most frustrating thing Tesla did re: Power was not allowing me to plug an appliance in. We lose power somewhat regularly where I live due to storms, and the tesla has 6-10 days of my household power budget sitting in its banks. Just let me plug in a deep freezer and coffee maker, please. INB4 the 12V terminals: They are hard to access, have limited amps, and are a separate crappy battery.

trainsarebetter 2y ago
For sure, but the economics don’t work out for the earlier Bev battery chemistry’s. The additional cycle where from v2x don’t justify it, getting a power wall just makes more sense in the long run. But I still agree the option should be there for emergencies
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  The thing is, Tesla is the only large battery I can put in my house, according to local regulations (I can get solar+battery, but the solar provider terms in my area are garbage, and I can only sell power to local company and get credits for later use. I can't actually store it). This is a disruption opportunity wasted.

postalrat 2y ago

Adding one additional voltage doesn't turn something from elegant to a complete mess. I don't know why you mentioned the traction motor voltage as part of the mess. Do you want hundreds of volts DC running all over the car?

throwaway48476 2y ago

The problem is for the whole industry to go 48V costs money and whoever pays will also benefit the competition because everyone has the same suppliers. There needs to be some kind of industry regulation that says by so and so date everything had to be 48V.

katzinsky 2y ago

In my homebrew BEV I've started just using AC for most smaller things. It's easier than finding 48v components, the connectors are nicer than 12v (I've really come to hate cigarette lighter plugs) the high voltage means the conductors can be small and the zero crossing means the switches can be much cheaper too. And being able to find replacement parts at the dollar store no matter where you are is really great.

samatman 2y ago

> selling "full self driving" that is downright dangerous. Is there evidence of this, at this point? I haven't looked into it in several years, but back then, Teslas were getting in fewer accidents per driver mile than average. I would think given that there's a faction of the public, and especially of the activist public, who are hostile to Tesla/Musk, that if FSD is in fact more dangerous (which would mean more accidents per driver mile), there would be a good URL you could provide us which makes that case using the available statistics on the subject. Because it's an entirely empirical question. Anyone can argue from first principles in either direction, but one of two things are the reality: either FSD driver miles are less prone to accident than average, or they're more so. I suppose it could be precisely at 50%, as well.

mrgoldenbrown 2y ago
It may be an empirical question, but as long as Tesla insists on keeping the raw data secret, it's reasonable to suspect their conclusions/claims https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/tesla-autopilot-crash-investigation-997b0129 https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/tesla-autopilot-crash-inv...
toast0 2y ago
To do proper statistical analysis, you'd need to compare miles driven with FSD to miles driven by humans in similar conditions. That's not the easiest thing to do. Tesla had occasionaly released statistics with their earlier driver assistance technology, but without enough detail to form informative comparisons. Based on past experience, I don't expect Tesla to provide meaningful statistical data or to allow outside access to their raw data (which fwiw, seems like a huge privacy risk to collect), so I don't think we'll have an empirical result unless there's discovery for a lawsuit.
theluketaylor 2y ago
Extensive analysis of Tesla and NHTSA crash reporting (some by NHTSA themselves) shows that autopilot and fsd do not have significantly better safety outcomes than manual drivers or drivers aided by other non-tesla assistance systems. This NHTSA report is pretty damning about Tesla's cavalier attitude towards the design of safe systems. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2023/04/26/tesla-again-paints-a-very-misleading-story-with-their-crash-data/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2023/04/26/tesla-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-tesla-autopilot-statistics-show-its-almost-as-safe-driving-with-it-as-without/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-te... https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-risky-deaths-crashes-nhtsa-investigation/ https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-autopilot-risky-deaths-cra...

hulitu 2y ago

> The legacy car makers have flirted with 48V components for decades but haven't been willing to do the hard work to realize all the benefits it brings Can you name some benefits ? ICs working at 48 V are expensive and hard to find.

brianwawok 2y ago
Massively smaller wires and higher powered accessories
AlotOfReading 2y ago
That's why DC/DC converters exist. Only the things that can take 48v (and associated voltage spikes) get exposed to it.
stephen_g 2y ago
Power ICs operating at 48V are common and cheap, because things like telco have been using 48V DC for decades. In terms of things like digital ICs, well they have never worked at 12V either. You have a step down converter to produce the 3.3 V, 1.8 V etc. rails they need.

grecy 2y ago

As well as 48v they also went to Ethernet for device comma, drastically reducing the amount of wiring