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> The creator is a current computer science student in China who is using the skills he's learning to make a pretty penny on the side. There's a strong argumen

by cvoss 2y ago

> The creator is a current computer science student in China who is using the skills he's learning to make a pretty penny on the side. There's a strong argument right here for teaching technology ethics as part of a typical CS curriculum. I'm not saying that would have stopped this student from making his own unethical choices, but it does highlight the fact that we equip people with these really powerful technical skills, but we don't even try to equip them with the ethics to be responsible about it. We just sort of hope they were raised right, I guess. Anyone here have experience with a curriculum that includes the ethics aspect?

signalToNose 2y ago
Not ethics per se but all students at university in Norway take basic philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examen_philosophicum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examen_philosophicum
bix6 2y ago
The Markkula Center at SCU is fantastic. https://www.scu.edu/ethics/about-the-center/center-news/integrating-ethics-into-undergraduate-computer-science-education/ https://www.scu.edu/ethics/about-the-center/center-news/inte...
mlavrent 2y ago
The Brown CS curriculum has in the past few years started including “socially responsible computing” material across intro and non-intro level courses. See https://responsible.cs.brown.edu/ https://responsible.cs.brown.edu/
- dgfitz 2y ago
  Why does it have to be social? Why not just “responsible computing” instead?
  - TimedToasts 2y ago
    You know why
eadler 2y ago
All ABET accredited programs are required to include ethics and have been required to do so for over 15 years. We explicitly learned about voht IEEE and ACM code of ethics for example (though this was not the only thing we discussed) . We were even tested on the difference. I'm always confused when people don't even get the baseline ethics training.
- ewoodrich 2y ago
  Yeah we all had to take it at Portland State because CS was ABET. Was kinda surprised to learn it wasn’t a standard CS requirement everywhere. There was also an ethics module in one of the massive pre-weed out 100 level courses.
0xdeadbeefbabe 2y ago
This person has lots of fellow students who aren't doing this. Maybe his CS classes aren't challenging enough.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Let's not blame CS classes for the unethical actions of one pupil. My CS classes weren't exactly challenging either, but I never wrote or sold a scamming toolkit.
PhasmaFelis 2y ago
Gotta be careful, though. If you teach them too much ethics then they won't want to work for most corporations.
Fokamul 2y ago
Clearly you don't understand Chinese mindset, do you think he has no ethics? He has a lot of ethics, because he wouldn't dare to hack Chinese citizens, we know why :) but everyone else (except Russians, of course) are open-season for them.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  > He has a lot of ethics, because he wouldn't dare to hack Chinese citizens That has to do with fear, not ethics; the consequences of getting caught doing this to Chinese (vs foreigners) are significantly high (you do not f*k around with a system that has no due process)
- djmips 2y ago
  I feel like you don't understand the word ethics the same way I do.
y-c-o-m-b 2y ago
In high school (over 2 decades ago), I figured out how to crack the school security software (and obtain its master password, thank you Windows swap file!) and after doing so, I installed a keylogger on the school library computers. I got access to dozens of email accounts, instant messaging accounts, etc. I'm self-taught all the way. In fact I dropped out of high school junior year with a 1.76 GPA. I knew what was right and wrong, but not yet mature enough to fully grasp the harm it does. I don't think any sort of ethics teachings would've changed anything.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  Similar story here, though at a smaller scale, and with a better educational experience. I remember distinctly talking to my mom about the ethics of hacking, and my viewpoint at the time was - in the parlance of kids today - cringe.
  - adastra22 2y ago
    I’m of the minority view that kids shouldn’t reach legal majority until age 25. High school and college age kids really don’t have fully developed mental capabilities, and we should recognize that.
    - pavel_lishin 2y ago
      > 25 That's a myth based on a study that stopped studying brain development at age 25. If they'd kept going, we might have learned that the brain is constantly changing, and 25 is no more or less arbitrary than 18, 16, or 48. https://www.sciencefocus.com/comment/brain-myth-25-development https://www.sciencefocus.com/comment/brain-myth-25-developme... > It could be a misunderstanding, stemming from brain scanning studies which looked at subjects up to the age of 25. But that’s like saying sprinters can only run 100 metres at most after watching the 100m final at the Olympics. The limit is imposed by the context, not biology.
      - adastra22 2y ago
jeroenhd 2y ago
The ethics classes I took delved into what good and wrong are, different ways to look at things, and a whole lot of debate about the concept of ethics itself (i.e. reading old works of philosophers, including some of the weird racist ones, understanding their take on the world, and reflecting on the shifted ethical perspectives, but also lively discussions within the classroom). Everyone already knew "stealing from the elderly is bad", so things were more focused on "what are the ethical reasons to restrict free speech" and "applying different ethical points of view onto a subject". In the end, ethics courses only teach you to be conscious about your actions and learning how to convince others that you're ethical. An ethical person can easily pass an ethics exam. All of that knowledge, and being raised by good parents, do not completely prevent someone from becoming a criminal. If you can set up a reasonably successful scamming business on your own as a student, you can earn enough money to move to the countryside and never need to work another day in your life, as long as you can manage to hide the money from the authorities. Or you can spend it all on drugs and other short-lives pleasures, like so many criminals do. Cybercrime targeting vulnerable people is laughably easy and extremely lucrative. Hearing about how hard some people's lives are because of their student loans, I'm a little surprised this stuff doesn't happen more, really, especially with the growing resentment the younger generations seem to feel for the bad hand they've been dealt by the older generations.
jdnndjxjen 2y ago
I see no argument for an ethics part in a CS curriculum. It's already quite watered down.
TrackerFF 2y ago
I will say this: Some cultures have a very strong "if you can scam someone and get away with it, you'd be a fool not to" mentality, often combined with the mindset that you should do everything in your power to improve your life, and that you're living in a constant state of scarcity - so if any opportunity pops up, you'd better take it. And if it's some random faceless person on the other side of the world, even better.

by cvoss 2y ago

signalToNose 2y ago

Not ethics per se but all students at university in Norway take basic philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examen_philosophicum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examen_philosophicum

bix6 2y ago

The Markkula Center at SCU is fantastic. https://www.scu.edu/ethics/about-the-center/center-news/integrating-ethics-into-undergraduate-computer-science-education/ https://www.scu.edu/ethics/about-the-center/center-news/inte...

mlavrent 2y ago

The Brown CS curriculum has in the past few years started including “socially responsible computing” material across intro and non-intro level courses. See https://responsible.cs.brown.edu/ https://responsible.cs.brown.edu/

dgfitz 2y ago
Why does it have to be social? Why not just “responsible computing” instead?
- TimedToasts 2y ago
  You know why

eadler 2y ago

All ABET accredited programs are required to include ethics and have been required to do so for over 15 years. We explicitly learned about voht IEEE and ACM code of ethics for example (though this was not the only thing we discussed) . We were even tested on the difference. I'm always confused when people don't even get the baseline ethics training.

ewoodrich 2y ago
Yeah we all had to take it at Portland State because CS was ABET. Was kinda surprised to learn it wasn’t a standard CS requirement everywhere. There was also an ethics module in one of the massive pre-weed out 100 level courses.

0xdeadbeefbabe 2y ago

This person has lots of fellow students who aren't doing this. Maybe his CS classes aren't challenging enough.

ryandrake 2y ago
Let's not blame CS classes for the unethical actions of one pupil. My CS classes weren't exactly challenging either, but I never wrote or sold a scamming toolkit.

PhasmaFelis 2y ago

Gotta be careful, though. If you teach them too much ethics then they won't want to work for most corporations.

Fokamul 2y ago

Clearly you don't understand Chinese mindset, do you think he has no ethics? He has a lot of ethics, because he wouldn't dare to hack Chinese citizens, we know why :) but everyone else (except Russians, of course) are open-season for them.

insane_dreamer 2y ago
> He has a lot of ethics, because he wouldn't dare to hack Chinese citizens That has to do with fear, not ethics; the consequences of getting caught doing this to Chinese (vs foreigners) are significantly high (you do not f*k around with a system that has no due process)
djmips 2y ago
I feel like you don't understand the word ethics the same way I do.

y-c-o-m-b 2y ago

In high school (over 2 decades ago), I figured out how to crack the school security software (and obtain its master password, thank you Windows swap file!) and after doing so, I installed a keylogger on the school library computers. I got access to dozens of email accounts, instant messaging accounts, etc. I'm self-taught all the way. In fact I dropped out of high school junior year with a 1.76 GPA. I knew what was right and wrong, but not yet mature enough to fully grasp the harm it does. I don't think any sort of ethics teachings would've changed anything.

pavel_lishin 2y ago
Similar story here, though at a smaller scale, and with a better educational experience. I remember distinctly talking to my mom about the ethics of hacking, and my viewpoint at the time was - in the parlance of kids today - cringe.
- adastra22 2y ago
  I’m of the minority view that kids shouldn’t reach legal majority until age 25. High school and college age kids really don’t have fully developed mental capabilities, and we should recognize that.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    > 25 That's a myth based on a study that stopped studying brain development at age 25. If they'd kept going, we might have learned that the brain is constantly changing, and 25 is no more or less arbitrary than 18, 16, or 48. https://www.sciencefocus.com/comment/brain-myth-25-development https://www.sciencefocus.com/comment/brain-myth-25-developme... > It could be a misunderstanding, stemming from brain scanning studies which looked at subjects up to the age of 25. But that’s like saying sprinters can only run 100 metres at most after watching the 100m final at the Olympics. The limit is imposed by the context, not biology.
    - adastra22 2y ago

jeroenhd 2y ago

The ethics classes I took delved into what good and wrong are, different ways to look at things, and a whole lot of debate about the concept of ethics itself (i.e. reading old works of philosophers, including some of the weird racist ones, understanding their take on the world, and reflecting on the shifted ethical perspectives, but also lively discussions within the classroom). Everyone already knew "stealing from the elderly is bad", so things were more focused on "what are the ethical reasons to restrict free speech" and "applying different ethical points of view onto a subject". In the end, ethics courses only teach you to be conscious about your actions and learning how to convince others that you're ethical. An ethical person can easily pass an ethics exam. All of that knowledge, and being raised by good parents, do not completely prevent someone from becoming a criminal. If you can set up a reasonably successful scamming business on your own as a student, you can earn enough money to move to the countryside and never need to work another day in your life, as long as you can manage to hide the money from the authorities. Or you can spend it all on drugs and other short-lives pleasures, like so many criminals do. Cybercrime targeting vulnerable people is laughably easy and extremely lucrative. Hearing about how hard some people's lives are because of their student loans, I'm a little surprised this stuff doesn't happen more, really, especially with the growing resentment the younger generations seem to feel for the bad hand they've been dealt by the older generations.

jdnndjxjen 2y ago

I see no argument for an ethics part in a CS curriculum. It's already quite watered down.

TrackerFF 2y ago

I will say this: Some cultures have a very strong "if you can scam someone and get away with it, you'd be a fool not to" mentality, often combined with the mindset that you should do everything in your power to improve your life, and that you're living in a constant state of scarcity - so if any opportunity pops up, you'd better take it. And if it's some random faceless person on the other side of the world, even better.