5 ms·

Would you mind linking a study? It seems like that directly contradicts what Dawkins says in his article

defrost 2y ago
I bought a first edition copy of Dawkin's The Selfish Gene in 1978 and a good number of his books since. He understands genetics and these days, when talking to the likes of Piers Morgan et al. he plays a cagey game and talks about reproductive sex, what is required to make a baby outside of a lab the good old fashioned way, when a sperm fertilises an egg. He's well aware there are more than two types of human birth, he glosses over what he knows to keep things simple to avoid contraversy or something. If this is all news to you, rather than something you might have read, as I did, some 40+ years ago, then you might choose to start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex IIRC it links to medical papers and meta papers. There are several people here in Australia that were born neither male nor female. That's a fact. One took a valid complaint through the Australian courts that they would be lying on an official document if they checked either [F] or [M] on an Australian passport. Doctors and genetics experts gave evidence, the Australian passport system was changed. This wasn't some "cultural gender" thing based on someone's feelings about gender, it was stone cold genetic reality about "sex" at birth .. which in reality is a lot more complicated than many Fox cable hosts claim it to be on camera.
- subjectsigma 2y ago
  Ok, great. Can you link to the study which shows chromosomal distributions, the one you mentioned in your comment?
  - defrost 2y ago
    [3], [8], [9], and all the numerous other references that appear immediately after a "%" sign in the already provided link. [3] is Selma Feldman Witchel (2018). "Disorders of Sex Development". Best Practice & Research. Clinical Obstetrics & Gynaecology. 48: 90–102. doi:10.1016/j.bpobgyn.2017.11.005. PMC 5866176. PMID 29503125. The estimated frequency of genital ambiguity is reported to be in the range of 1:2000–1:4500 Those referencess of the 218 references provided are the ones that mainly focus on various aspects of distribution frequency.
    - subjectsigma 2y ago
      Thanks!
- blinkedup 2y ago
  > There are several people here in Australia that were born neither male nor female. That's a fact. One took a valid complaint through the Australian courts that they would be lying on an official document if they checked either [F] or [M] on an Australian passport. Do you have a reference for or link to the details of the court case? It would be very interesting to understand the details.
  - defrost 2y ago
    There are several Family Court of Australia decisions, along with the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 and its underpinnings that go with the 2003 decision of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to recommend that Australian passports allow the indeterminate category and for the State of Victoria to change their policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex_rights_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex_rights_in_Australia sketches out a framework, the details can be extracted from the public records for the Department, the State of Victoria, and the decisions of the Family Court.
    - blinkedup 2y ago
      Thanks for the link. Looks like Alex MacFarlane was the test case for this. Though I'm surprised he managed to convince them that he needed a passport with an "X" in it, because according to the articles on his case linked from the Wikipedia page, he has Klinefelter syndrome - which is an unambiguously male condition.
      - defrost 2y ago
        Alex MacFarlane publicly brought the case and was the only person publicly named in the press, correct. > Though I'm surprised he managed to convince them Would you be equally suprised that Perry Mason won a case concerning a woman? Do you require that a fully limbed wheelchair bound lawyer be disqualified in a disability case about a blind amputee? The key result here is that people of unambiguously indeterminate sex actually exist and government forms in Australia now recognise that. A wider realisation that some may not reach is that various syndrome might not unambiguously define male or female for the people borm with such syndromes or be clear to the parents that raise them.

I bought a first edition copy of Dawkin's The Selfish Gene in 1978 and a good number of his books since. He understands genetics and these days, when talking to the likes of Piers Morgan et al. he plays a cagey game and talks about reproductive sex, what is required to make a baby outside of a lab the good old fashioned way, when a sperm fertilises an egg. He's well aware there are more than two types of human birth, he glosses over what he knows to keep things simple to avoid contraversy or something. If this is all news to you, rather than something you might have read, as I did, some 40+ years ago, then you might choose to start with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex IIRC it links to medical papers and meta papers. There are several people here in Australia that were born neither male nor female. That's a fact. One took a valid complaint through the Australian courts that they would be lying on an official document if they checked either [F] or [M] on an Australian passport. Doctors and genetics experts gave evidence, the Australian passport system was changed. This wasn't some "cultural gender" thing based on someone's feelings about gender, it was stone cold genetic reality about "sex" at birth .. which in reality is a lot more complicated than many Fox cable hosts claim it to be on camera.

subjectsigma 2y ago
Ok, great. Can you link to the study which shows chromosomal distributions, the one you mentioned in your comment?
- defrost 2y ago
  [3], [8], [9], and all the numerous other references that appear immediately after a "%" sign in the already provided link. [3] is Selma Feldman Witchel (2018). "Disorders of Sex Development". Best Practice & Research. Clinical Obstetrics & Gynaecology. 48: 90–102. doi:10.1016/j.bpobgyn.2017.11.005. PMC 5866176. PMID 29503125. The estimated frequency of genital ambiguity is reported to be in the range of 1:2000–1:4500 Those referencess of the 218 references provided are the ones that mainly focus on various aspects of distribution frequency.
  - subjectsigma 2y ago
    Thanks!
blinkedup 2y ago
> There are several people here in Australia that were born neither male nor female. That's a fact. One took a valid complaint through the Australian courts that they would be lying on an official document if they checked either [F] or [M] on an Australian passport. Do you have a reference for or link to the details of the court case? It would be very interesting to understand the details.
- defrost 2y ago
  There are several Family Court of Australia decisions, along with the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 and its underpinnings that go with the 2003 decision of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to recommend that Australian passports allow the indeterminate category and for the State of Victoria to change their policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex_rights_in_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex_rights_in_Australia sketches out a framework, the details can be extracted from the public records for the Department, the State of Victoria, and the decisions of the Family Court.
  - blinkedup 2y ago
    Thanks for the link. Looks like Alex MacFarlane was the test case for this. Though I'm surprised he managed to convince them that he needed a passport with an "X" in it, because according to the articles on his case linked from the Wikipedia page, he has Klinefelter syndrome - which is an unambiguously male condition.
    - defrost 2y ago
      Alex MacFarlane publicly brought the case and was the only person publicly named in the press, correct. > Though I'm surprised he managed to convince them Would you be equally suprised that Perry Mason won a case concerning a woman? Do you require that a fully limbed wheelchair bound lawyer be disqualified in a disability case about a blind amputee? The key result here is that people of unambiguously indeterminate sex actually exist and government forms in Australia now recognise that. A wider realisation that some may not reach is that various syndrome might not unambiguously define male or female for the people borm with such syndromes or be clear to the parents that raise them.