4 ms·

As far as I can tell, these scammers were in China. Nothing illegal until they sign an extradition treaty with the US. Which they won't, lmao.

lesuorac 2y ago
Isn't it? Like if I fly from China to US and offer you a bridge in exchange for $20 and take the $20 and don't give you a bridge, it's a scam. What's the difference between that and doing it online? The offer is still posed on US soil; if anything it should expose you to the legality of both countries.
- bluGill 2y ago
  The difference is if I'm still in the US the US police will arrest me. If I'm in China the US police has to ask China to arrest me - if China refuses to arrest me than no crime was committed as far as I'm concerned since my government let me get away with it. Technically the US can start a war with China, which could reach the point of the US military capturing me and bringing me to the US thus ensuring I don't get away wit it. Realistically that isn't happening though. There are also trade-war options which sometimes happen in high profile cases, but often they are seen as losing more than gained. Note that most countries will arrest me and send me to the US if presented evidence. If you used France as your example country and so I'm exposed the the legality of both countries. Russia and North Korea are most well noted as protecting their own people against crimes like this committed elsewhere, so if you can get protection from those countries for this crime it isn't a crime because nothing will happen (war of course is an option but it seems unlikely). China is a grey area - they sometimes protect their own, but often they will not, in general for this scam I'd expect they would arrest you for this scam, but not all of them.
  - lesuorac 2y ago
    Sure, the US might not be able to arrest you if you're not within it's territory. But that's still the same as selling you a bridge for $20 and just hoping on a flight to China. It doesn't make it legal though; it just means you aren't arrested. The DoJ may still issue indictments [1]. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=doj+warrents+for+russian+hacker https://www.google.com/search?q=doj+warrents+for+russian+hac...
    - lupire 2y ago
      "Possession is nine tenths of the law."
  - aragonite 2y ago
    > Note that most countries will arrest me and send me to the US if presented evidence. I believe that's actually very rare. I mean instances in which country A extraditing to country B one of its own citizens (who isn't also a dual citizen of B). In the most common scenario, country A extradites a citizen of B back to B, or (less common) a citizen of some 3rd country C to B. I couldn't find a single instance in which a US citizen was extradited from American soil to a foreign country, for example, even though this is permitted by the extradition treaties. (I welcome any pointers to actual instances) Foreign countries sometimes extradite their own citizens to the US, but I believe that to be very rare. Even the case of Gary McKinnon [1] was ultimately blocked, for example. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon
- PepperdineG 2y ago
  The laws aren't universally the same in all countries. Copyright/product counterfeiting can vary from country to country for instance, so you can do something legally in one country but the importation of such a product into another country would be illegal. China makes all kinds of knock-off DVDs and products, while US resellers can get themselves in a bunch of trouble for importing and selling such products. Large scale US resellers get arrested for selling these Chinese knock-offs, but it doesn't mean that the Chinese manufacturers engaged in a legal activity in their own country are at risk of being arrested and deported to the US even though they're the bigger fish. With your bridge example different countries and jurisdictions could have different requirements for the purchase of real estate or that you even were buying real estate rather than like an NFT, toy model, etc. A scam in the US might not be considered a scam in a foreign jurisdiction and even within the US it might not be considered a scam, like if someone offers you a quit claim deed for whatever interests they have in a bridge for $20 that could be considered legal depending on what representations were made. In fact a person buying a quit claim deed for way below market value could find themselves in hot water being investigated for like elder abuse with them being seen as the one trying to pull a scam on a potentially vulnerable property owner.
seanhunter 2y ago
An extradition treaty doesn't define what is and isn't legal, it defines under what circumstances a country who is party to the treaty will surrender someone who is currently sheltering in their territory to face prosecution in another country.[1] So for example some GRU agents came to the UK and attempted to murder a couple of Russian expats using a nerve agent called Novichok[2]. As well as the original targets, three further people were poisoned and had to be hospitalised, one of whom died. Unsurprisingly perhaps Russia won't extradite their millitary intelligence officers back to the UK to face justice. This doesn't change the fact that murder and attempted murder are definitely illegal in the UK. [1] https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-extradition https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-extradition [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_...

lesuorac 2y ago

Isn't it? Like if I fly from China to US and offer you a bridge in exchange for $20 and take the $20 and don't give you a bridge, it's a scam. What's the difference between that and doing it online? The offer is still posed on US soil; if anything it should expose you to the legality of both countries.

bluGill 2y ago
The difference is if I'm still in the US the US police will arrest me. If I'm in China the US police has to ask China to arrest me - if China refuses to arrest me than no crime was committed as far as I'm concerned since my government let me get away with it. Technically the US can start a war with China, which could reach the point of the US military capturing me and bringing me to the US thus ensuring I don't get away wit it. Realistically that isn't happening though. There are also trade-war options which sometimes happen in high profile cases, but often they are seen as losing more than gained. Note that most countries will arrest me and send me to the US if presented evidence. If you used France as your example country and so I'm exposed the the legality of both countries. Russia and North Korea are most well noted as protecting their own people against crimes like this committed elsewhere, so if you can get protection from those countries for this crime it isn't a crime because nothing will happen (war of course is an option but it seems unlikely). China is a grey area - they sometimes protect their own, but often they will not, in general for this scam I'd expect they would arrest you for this scam, but not all of them.
- lesuorac 2y ago
  Sure, the US might not be able to arrest you if you're not within it's territory. But that's still the same as selling you a bridge for $20 and just hoping on a flight to China. It doesn't make it legal though; it just means you aren't arrested. The DoJ may still issue indictments [1]. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=doj+warrents+for+russian+hacker https://www.google.com/search?q=doj+warrents+for+russian+hac...
  - lupire 2y ago
    "Possession is nine tenths of the law."
- aragonite 2y ago
  > Note that most countries will arrest me and send me to the US if presented evidence. I believe that's actually very rare. I mean instances in which country A extraditing to country B one of its own citizens (who isn't also a dual citizen of B). In the most common scenario, country A extradites a citizen of B back to B, or (less common) a citizen of some 3rd country C to B. I couldn't find a single instance in which a US citizen was extradited from American soil to a foreign country, for example, even though this is permitted by the extradition treaties. (I welcome any pointers to actual instances) Foreign countries sometimes extradite their own citizens to the US, but I believe that to be very rare. Even the case of Gary McKinnon [1] was ultimately blocked, for example. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon
PepperdineG 2y ago
The laws aren't universally the same in all countries. Copyright/product counterfeiting can vary from country to country for instance, so you can do something legally in one country but the importation of such a product into another country would be illegal. China makes all kinds of knock-off DVDs and products, while US resellers can get themselves in a bunch of trouble for importing and selling such products. Large scale US resellers get arrested for selling these Chinese knock-offs, but it doesn't mean that the Chinese manufacturers engaged in a legal activity in their own country are at risk of being arrested and deported to the US even though they're the bigger fish. With your bridge example different countries and jurisdictions could have different requirements for the purchase of real estate or that you even were buying real estate rather than like an NFT, toy model, etc. A scam in the US might not be considered a scam in a foreign jurisdiction and even within the US it might not be considered a scam, like if someone offers you a quit claim deed for whatever interests they have in a bridge for $20 that could be considered legal depending on what representations were made. In fact a person buying a quit claim deed for way below market value could find themselves in hot water being investigated for like elder abuse with them being seen as the one trying to pull a scam on a potentially vulnerable property owner.

seanhunter 2y ago

An extradition treaty doesn't define what is and isn't legal, it defines under what circumstances a country who is party to the treaty will surrender someone who is currently sheltering in their territory to face prosecution in another country.[1] So for example some GRU agents came to the UK and attempted to murder a couple of Russian expats using a nerve agent called Novichok[2]. As well as the original targets, three further people were poisoned and had to be hospitalised, one of whom died. Unsurprisingly perhaps Russia won't extradite their millitary intelligence officers back to the UK to face justice. This doesn't change the fact that murder and attempted murder are definitely illegal in the UK. [1] https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-extradition https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-extradition [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_...