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A weird article. Apple was not the first or the only company to look to East Asia for cheap manufacturing, elctronic equipments, chips, or cheap labor. The tre

A weird article. Apple was not the first or the only company to look to East Asia for cheap manufacturing, elctronic equipments, chips, or cheap labor. The trend was started and accelerated by motor companies and hardware just followed suit. Then, some other points are just...there. Apple is America's semiconductor problem because Apple is so big it purchases things in bulk and gets discounts - like every other big company in every industry. TSMC sold 100% of the capacity to Apple for 3nm chips because no one else had the designs ready, Apple needed them in bulk, and the yield wasn't that high. It is problematic, but you need to mention these things when making a claim. The problem is two fold - other companies are not really innovating and experimenting at semis with a scale at which Apple is. This is a market failure more than an Apple failure. Others were reliant on Qualcomm, broadcomm, samsung, and Intel, with slower pace of innovation. Then there is Asian countries with cheap economies of scale. It's one thing to assume the most nefarious intent from the start and then look at everything from that lens. It mostly leads to paranoia, not insight.

fundad 2y ago
A few other things jumped out to me: - Automotive's advanced features require chips but not the most advanced chips (by design, for reliability). - Micron's HQ is in the US but has operated globally since 1998 including design. ("Micron really went global in terms of its operations once it acquired the TI DRAM operations in 1998") - TSMC's 90% share of global semi is why Apple can get the exclusive on advanced processes. - Isn't a lot of CHIPs Act money help prop up Intel who didn't succeed in mobile and is laying off thousands anyway? - Apple did not cause poor pay and working conditions in China, the conditions, pay and environmental protections are how China attracts businesses. - Apple can not tax you because they can not arrest you if you don't pay 30% commission. - Massimo is medical device company, I'm curious how big a semi concern they are.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > Automotive's advanced features require chips but not the most advanced chips Exactly, and if Matt Stoller was honest he would bring up that point. Most automotive chips use 28nm, 40nm, and 60nm nodes and China has been very competitive in this space now because of existing capacity built from OSAT and AMTP consolidation in China by Taiwanese and Malaysian/Singaporean players like UMC before the 2019 HK protests, MediaTek, and ASMPT from the 2000s-2010s. It's analog chips, 28nm/40nm nodes and Packaging that have been getting a significant amount of CHIPS funding, as well as similar funding from the Japanese, Taiwanese, South Korean, Malaysian, and Indian governments recently. From a NatSec perspective, it's those kinds of nodes that have a critical impact as most weapons systems can subsist on a Intel i7 and Nvidia Maxwell comparable CPU and GPU. Think EWS, C-RAMs, Guidance Systems, etc. > Isn't a lot of CHIPs Act money help prop up Intel who didn't succeed in mobile and is laying off thousands anyway Those layoffs are staff who don't have experience with High NA EUV processes (aka staff who didn't skill up). I can safely say that. The CHIPS funding is a mix of subsidizing High NA EUV nodes as well as domestic OSAT and AMTP/Packaging capacity.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    Also probably worth mentioning that a lot of the automotive chip shortages were a result of industry-specific factors: 1) Auto manufacturers incorrectly predicted that the pandemic would result in much lower sales, and reduced their component orders accordingly. When auto sales stayed stronger than expected, they were forced to buy those parts on the open market - reducing the number available to other customers. 2) A couple of major semiconductor manufacturers had incidents at their facilities (most notably, a fire at a Renesas fab) which limited production.
    - doctorpangloss 2y ago
      Autos manufacturers assembled 1000 parts in China and call it 1 chip for import quota purposes. There was no “chip” shortage. There was an assembly labor shortage in China, a real shortage, cause by the disruption of the pandemic.
      - duskwuff 2y ago
        > There was no “chip” shortage. Where are you getting that idea? There was absolutely a chip shortage! A lot of electronic components which were readily available before 2020 became unavailable or prohibitively expensive, and stayed that way for as long as a year or two afterwards.
- fundad 2y ago
  BTW, the quote is from Sanjay Mehrota's Oral History https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2019/08/102740455-05-01-acc.pdf https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/20...
threeseed 2y ago
> This is a market failure more than an Apple failure Arguably it's a Microsoft failure more than anything. If they had delivered a version of Windows for ARM capable of seamlessly emulating x86 code with no compromises and released it a decade ago the world would likely be different.
- voidfunc 2y ago
  Why would Microsoft build something almost no customers were asking for? Even now ARM is niche.
  - everettp 2y ago
    What? Per Wikipedia: "With over 230 billion ARM chips produced, as of 2022, ARM is the most widely used family of instruction set architectures."[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family
    - PetitPrince 2y ago
      Niche in the laptop and desktop caategory I assume?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - teknologist 2y ago
    To show them that their battery life could go from 2.5 hours to 8 or more, perhaps. That was the Mac experience that customers weren't asking for yet "wowed" them when it came.
    - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
      > To show them that their battery life could go from 2.5 hours to 8 or more, perhaps. x86 already was on its way towards such a goal.
baxtr 2y ago
>It's one thing to assume the most nefarious intent from the start and then look at everything from that lens. It mostly leads to paranoia, not insight. That’s a marketing tactic that even works on HN I’m afraid. Create an enemy and then tell a story about that nemesis. Our human storytelling brains need to hear tales of good and evil. If you want to get an article like that ranking that’s one way to do it. Unfortunately.
- tsunamifury 2y ago
  On the other hand if you have ever worked at a high level in these companies they are hardcore evil. Maybe not in this case but they 100% do the evil thing and press it to their advantage.
  - baxtr 2y ago
    That’s the story you’re telling yourself to make sense of the world.
    - Y_Y 2y ago
      I would call this "understanding" and reckon it you could use it as a reply to pretty much any comment. Unless you see things exactly as they are and apply no interpretation, then this is the mechanism by which humans "make sense" of the world. I guess you mean that the story is harmfully reductive or demands further critical examination, but I just want to defend telling oneself stories as a thinking tool.
      - baxtr 2y ago
        I agree that as human beings we can’t live without stories as thinking tool. Although I wouldn’t call it “understanding” but “interpreting”. I wanted to say that good vs evil are hardly absolutes. No one at a large corporate comes to work saying: today I will be evil again. Instead they tell themselves they’re helping investors getting a good return, or that they’re “smashing Google for copying iOS”. There is a great quote by Shakespeare saying: “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” I’d say storytelling makes it so!
SkiFire13 2y ago
> because no one else had the designs ready Do you have a source for this?
- ankit219 2y ago
  https://technode.com/2024/03/27/tsmc-sees-strong-demand-for-3nm-chips-with-orders-from-apple-intel-and-amd-report/ https://technode.com/2024/03/27/tsmc-sees-strong-demand-for-... Right now there are three. Intel, Apple, and AMD. In 2022, there was one. Samsung manufactured for Qualcomm who were in testing phase.
trhway 2y ago
> Apple is America's semiconductor problem It isn't Apple who is the problem here, it is Intel who refused to manufacture ARM chips for Apple. So Apple didn't have much choice as there aren't much fabs around to choose from. Now Intel, sore looser, is competing for CHIPS money against TSMC/Apple (and Intel will definitely get and waste a lot of those CHIPS money thus making the problem even worse). The article, which looks like a hit-piece, is written by a think-tank funded by Omidyar who is pushing for CHIPS and seems to be connected with Intel a bit here and a bit there. Did somebody say "submarine"?
- DrScientist 2y ago
  Yep, the omission of mentioning the Intel/Arm dynamic in the article is very telling. Notable also is the omission of Nvida - which I also believe mostly uses TSMC.
  - ankit219 2y ago
    The market changed recently. With ARM (and not sure how many others), it democratized chip design to an extent that companies could design their own requirements, simulate, add standard functionalities, and then find a third party fab which can manufacture that in bulk. The core value transferred from one company doing everything in a centralized manner to three distinct sections - chip design done by individual companies, fab + manufacturing on given designs (eg: SK Hynix, TSMC), and ARM which enables both these sections to function as they do. As with tech markets, once democratized, the overall pie increases massively. (This is a gross simplification and at conceptual level. Not this clear cut, but this is pretty much the value chain) ARM allowed companies to focus on design, and not having to worry about manufacturing. Nvidia is mostly dependent on TSMC, but truth is they can move to SK Hynix and Samsung without a drop in quality. (Basically whoever has the capacity to build the chips at their nm level). I laud the authorities for stopping Nvidia/ARM acquisition a couple of years ago. More than any other acquisition, this would have skewed things up massively.
fsflover 2y ago
> It's one thing to assume the most nefarious intent from the start and then look at everything from that lens. It mostly leads to paranoia, not insight. The intent is pretty clear and uncontroversial: profit by all means, like any other for-profit entity. Real problems arise when the company becomes (nearly-)monopolistic and their actions start to harm whole industries, like in this case. In other news, monopolies are bad for you.
hintymad 2y ago
A weird article indeed, and it shows the weak mentality of the author. Apple picked East Asia because East Asia were more productive and reliable. The real question to ask is why the chip manufacturing in the US has been declining in the last two decades?
johnea 2y ago
It never ceases to amaze me that the "magical invisible hand" folks instantly leap to socialism whenever they actually need to invest in innfrastructure 8-/ If intel/amd/etc can't build their own fabs, and expect we-the-people to pay for it, then we-the-people should jump to socialism and nationalise the lot. If we have to pay for it, we should own it...

fundad 2y ago

A few other things jumped out to me: - Automotive's advanced features require chips but not the most advanced chips (by design, for reliability). - Micron's HQ is in the US but has operated globally since 1998 including design. ("Micron really went global in terms of its operations once it acquired the TI DRAM operations in 1998") - TSMC's 90% share of global semi is why Apple can get the exclusive on advanced processes. - Isn't a lot of CHIPs Act money help prop up Intel who didn't succeed in mobile and is laying off thousands anyway? - Apple did not cause poor pay and working conditions in China, the conditions, pay and environmental protections are how China attracts businesses. - Apple can not tax you because they can not arrest you if you don't pay 30% commission. - Massimo is medical device company, I'm curious how big a semi concern they are.

alephnerd 2y ago
> Automotive's advanced features require chips but not the most advanced chips Exactly, and if Matt Stoller was honest he would bring up that point. Most automotive chips use 28nm, 40nm, and 60nm nodes and China has been very competitive in this space now because of existing capacity built from OSAT and AMTP consolidation in China by Taiwanese and Malaysian/Singaporean players like UMC before the 2019 HK protests, MediaTek, and ASMPT from the 2000s-2010s. It's analog chips, 28nm/40nm nodes and Packaging that have been getting a significant amount of CHIPS funding, as well as similar funding from the Japanese, Taiwanese, South Korean, Malaysian, and Indian governments recently. From a NatSec perspective, it's those kinds of nodes that have a critical impact as most weapons systems can subsist on a Intel i7 and Nvidia Maxwell comparable CPU and GPU. Think EWS, C-RAMs, Guidance Systems, etc. > Isn't a lot of CHIPs Act money help prop up Intel who didn't succeed in mobile and is laying off thousands anyway Those layoffs are staff who don't have experience with High NA EUV processes (aka staff who didn't skill up). I can safely say that. The CHIPS funding is a mix of subsidizing High NA EUV nodes as well as domestic OSAT and AMTP/Packaging capacity.
- duskwuff 2y ago
  Also probably worth mentioning that a lot of the automotive chip shortages were a result of industry-specific factors: 1) Auto manufacturers incorrectly predicted that the pandemic would result in much lower sales, and reduced their component orders accordingly. When auto sales stayed stronger than expected, they were forced to buy those parts on the open market - reducing the number available to other customers. 2) A couple of major semiconductor manufacturers had incidents at their facilities (most notably, a fire at a Renesas fab) which limited production.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    Autos manufacturers assembled 1000 parts in China and call it 1 chip for import quota purposes. There was no “chip” shortage. There was an assembly labor shortage in China, a real shortage, cause by the disruption of the pandemic.
    - duskwuff 2y ago
      > There was no “chip” shortage. Where are you getting that idea? There was absolutely a chip shortage! A lot of electronic components which were readily available before 2020 became unavailable or prohibitively expensive, and stayed that way for as long as a year or two afterwards.
fundad 2y ago
BTW, the quote is from Sanjay Mehrota's Oral History https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2019/08/102740455-05-01-acc.pdf https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/20...

threeseed 2y ago

> This is a market failure more than an Apple failure Arguably it's a Microsoft failure more than anything. If they had delivered a version of Windows for ARM capable of seamlessly emulating x86 code with no compromises and released it a decade ago the world would likely be different.

voidfunc 2y ago
Why would Microsoft build something almost no customers were asking for? Even now ARM is niche.
- everettp 2y ago
  What? Per Wikipedia: "With over 230 billion ARM chips produced, as of 2022, ARM is the most widely used family of instruction set architectures."[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family
  - PetitPrince 2y ago
    Niche in the laptop and desktop caategory I assume?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- teknologist 2y ago
  To show them that their battery life could go from 2.5 hours to 8 or more, perhaps. That was the Mac experience that customers weren't asking for yet "wowed" them when it came.
  - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
    > To show them that their battery life could go from 2.5 hours to 8 or more, perhaps. x86 already was on its way towards such a goal.

baxtr 2y ago

>It's one thing to assume the most nefarious intent from the start and then look at everything from that lens. It mostly leads to paranoia, not insight. That’s a marketing tactic that even works on HN I’m afraid. Create an enemy and then tell a story about that nemesis. Our human storytelling brains need to hear tales of good and evil. If you want to get an article like that ranking that’s one way to do it. Unfortunately.

tsunamifury 2y ago
On the other hand if you have ever worked at a high level in these companies they are hardcore evil. Maybe not in this case but they 100% do the evil thing and press it to their advantage.
- baxtr 2y ago
  That’s the story you’re telling yourself to make sense of the world.
  - Y_Y 2y ago
    I would call this "understanding" and reckon it you could use it as a reply to pretty much any comment. Unless you see things exactly as they are and apply no interpretation, then this is the mechanism by which humans "make sense" of the world. I guess you mean that the story is harmfully reductive or demands further critical examination, but I just want to defend telling oneself stories as a thinking tool.
    - baxtr 2y ago
      I agree that as human beings we can’t live without stories as thinking tool. Although I wouldn’t call it “understanding” but “interpreting”. I wanted to say that good vs evil are hardly absolutes. No one at a large corporate comes to work saying: today I will be evil again. Instead they tell themselves they’re helping investors getting a good return, or that they’re “smashing Google for copying iOS”. There is a great quote by Shakespeare saying: “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” I’d say storytelling makes it so!

SkiFire13 2y ago

> because no one else had the designs ready Do you have a source for this?

ankit219 2y ago
https://technode.com/2024/03/27/tsmc-sees-strong-demand-for-3nm-chips-with-orders-from-apple-intel-and-amd-report/ https://technode.com/2024/03/27/tsmc-sees-strong-demand-for-... Right now there are three. Intel, Apple, and AMD. In 2022, there was one. Samsung manufactured for Qualcomm who were in testing phase.

trhway 2y ago

> Apple is America's semiconductor problem It isn't Apple who is the problem here, it is Intel who refused to manufacture ARM chips for Apple. So Apple didn't have much choice as there aren't much fabs around to choose from. Now Intel, sore looser, is competing for CHIPS money against TSMC/Apple (and Intel will definitely get and waste a lot of those CHIPS money thus making the problem even worse). The article, which looks like a hit-piece, is written by a think-tank funded by Omidyar who is pushing for CHIPS and seems to be connected with Intel a bit here and a bit there. Did somebody say "submarine"?

DrScientist 2y ago
Yep, the omission of mentioning the Intel/Arm dynamic in the article is very telling. Notable also is the omission of Nvida - which I also believe mostly uses TSMC.
- ankit219 2y ago
  The market changed recently. With ARM (and not sure how many others), it democratized chip design to an extent that companies could design their own requirements, simulate, add standard functionalities, and then find a third party fab which can manufacture that in bulk. The core value transferred from one company doing everything in a centralized manner to three distinct sections - chip design done by individual companies, fab + manufacturing on given designs (eg: SK Hynix, TSMC), and ARM which enables both these sections to function as they do. As with tech markets, once democratized, the overall pie increases massively. (This is a gross simplification and at conceptual level. Not this clear cut, but this is pretty much the value chain) ARM allowed companies to focus on design, and not having to worry about manufacturing. Nvidia is mostly dependent on TSMC, but truth is they can move to SK Hynix and Samsung without a drop in quality. (Basically whoever has the capacity to build the chips at their nm level). I laud the authorities for stopping Nvidia/ARM acquisition a couple of years ago. More than any other acquisition, this would have skewed things up massively.

fsflover 2y ago

> It's one thing to assume the most nefarious intent from the start and then look at everything from that lens. It mostly leads to paranoia, not insight. The intent is pretty clear and uncontroversial: profit by all means, like any other for-profit entity. Real problems arise when the company becomes (nearly-)monopolistic and their actions start to harm whole industries, like in this case. In other news, monopolies are bad for you.

hintymad 2y ago

A weird article indeed, and it shows the weak mentality of the author. Apple picked East Asia because East Asia were more productive and reliable. The real question to ask is why the chip manufacturing in the US has been declining in the last two decades?

johnea 2y ago

It never ceases to amaze me that the "magical invisible hand" folks instantly leap to socialism whenever they actually need to invest in innfrastructure 8-/ If intel/amd/etc can't build their own fabs, and expect we-the-people to pay for it, then we-the-people should jump to socialism and nationalise the lot. If we have to pay for it, we should own it...