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I am generally skeptical of systems that apparently mostly rely on the methodology of "call this thing another name and you'll change your approach to it". This

I am generally skeptical of systems that apparently mostly rely on the methodology of "call this thing another name and you'll change your approach to it". This thing works because there's a community / group session around it, but it would probably still work even if you just called goals - goals.

saulpw 2y ago
Names matter. Subtle differences in perception change your stance in approaching and interpreting the thing. Like "violin" vs "fiddle", or "assertive" vs "aggressive".
nuancebydefault 2y ago
I have a different take. A pet peeve of mine is give things a good name and define what you mean by it. A good name is as much as possible self-explaining. Quest rhymes well with adventure, detours, heroism,... the word itself tends to create the mindset that the author wants you to have.
- iwontberude 2y ago
  Quest rhymes with mindless grinding in my mind, go there fetch this, kill that, get the gold or the item, rinse repeat. It’s the opposite of fresh and process focused in my mind. Better yet is define our work as trips (like psychedelic) where the outcome is unknown until the end and the expectations are malleable. Goals and quests are both corporate nerd speak and make me sick.
  - nuancebydefault 2y ago
    I'm sorry to hear that. I wonder where those connotations of quest come from. Did you in the past play a lot of computer role playing games? Defining work as trips... I wonder... what kind of work do you do and are you happy with the fruits of your work?
npunt 2y ago
A different name offers a different perspective, because of all the associations with the name. Problems that are hard to solve are often hard because we're stuck on a particular perspective as to how to solve them. Reframing with new associations is a way to gain a new perspective, to look at the problem differently, to gain insight that you previously did not have. This is an extremely common and effective problem solving technique.
- jnordwick 2y ago
  just bad unreproduceable psychology research. there is zero proof of this. we actually have examples going the other way though. the idea that changing the words used can change your ideas about something is a weak form of the sapir whorf hypothesis, which is close to universally panned in stronger forms and highly suspect in weaker forms except in pop psychology. pinker called a similar idea - changing a word to avoid previous negative connotations - the euphemism treadmill: from retarded to handicapped to disabled to differetly abled, but never changed anybodies views. they just carried them over. its because language is a reflection of our inner thoughts, not the other way around.
  - npunt 2y ago
    That's weird because I find value in using this technique in both personal and creative contexts, and these kinds of reframes are used all the time in therapy, in school, with parents talking to their kids, etc. Perhaps the finer points of those studies are not applicable to the topic at hand, which is an individuals strategy to gain new perspective on their own problems, rather than the nth-order effects of proxy words in culture, or researcher's anthropological interpretations and comparisons of languages effect on worldviews across extremely different cultures. I get that it's a popular topic on HN to point out the replicability crisis in psych research, but the nature of the beast of a high level / subjective / messy subject like human psychology is that you have to be extremely precise about what you're testing and what conclusions you draw, or you're at risk of generalizing beyond the data. What you've cited has surface level similarity to the topic at hand, but is quite different in the specifics. Plus it doesn't even stand up to the sniff test - language impacts us. Words impact us. The subtleties of how language is used can have profound effects on how we live our lives. Haven't you ever read a beautiful sentence over and over, or marinated in an obscure word and all its intricacies? This is a common sense proposition.
dionian 2y ago
I think it's subtly insightful because a goal focuses us on the endpoint and a quest focuses us on the journey that we need to undertake to get there. But to each his or her own!
n_plus_1_acc 2y ago
See also: nonviolent communication
dclowd9901 2y ago
I don’t think it’s any secret that learning a new language has the effect of remapping the neurons of your brain, and we already know that we associate a lot with words, not just their meanings but what they mean to us. I don’t think there’s been sufficient research in this area really but I also don’t think that’s enough in itself to downplay it as woo. If the word “quest” doesn’t conjure images in your mind of a long winding journey with pitfalls and successes that eventually lands you in a place where you’ve achieved a goal and also changed as a person, maybe just use the word in your vocabulary that _does_ conjure those images and see if you feel the same way.
ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
It's about changing your mindset and how you approach your goal/quest
m3kw9 2y ago
Is a type of gamification which could work for some like this fella
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
soulofmischief 2y ago
This view ignores the importance of, and empirical data around, psychosemantics. Additionally as others touched on, a precise vocabulary or nomenclature allows us to be precise about our intentions and gives us a framework for making decisions. "Quest" orients you around the journey instead of the destination, which can have many benefits. It helps to not consider this, or any other technique, as one-size-fits-all doctrine. I personally have always considered myself very goal-oriented, but this article allowed me to understand things from a different angle and realize that I'm actually much more process-oriented. This will help me make future decisions around projects when planning them out and accounting for the need for sustained motivation.
drewcoo 2y ago
Don't be skeptical. Be inquisitive. And make that change because I, a stranger on the Internet told you to. Also pay for my woo training! /s
mihaaly 2y ago
Your interpretation is inaccurate. It was not about calling it differently and it will become something else kind of message, but to look at the things you do differently so you'd have a chance doing differently eventually, doing what is important at last. Some (quite a few actually) need specific tags and title on everything so this assign very specific words to matters having different composition for everyone works for them, this is a typical way of relaying ideas to masses (regrettably). But the message is not what words to use but how to do things. We only can speak - exchange ideas and information - about things with words, unfortunately. Well, some can dance specific ideas and todo list to each other, but that is just freak exception. We use words for thoughts.

saulpw 2y ago

Names matter. Subtle differences in perception change your stance in approaching and interpreting the thing. Like "violin" vs "fiddle", or "assertive" vs "aggressive".

nuancebydefault 2y ago

I have a different take. A pet peeve of mine is give things a good name and define what you mean by it. A good name is as much as possible self-explaining. Quest rhymes well with adventure, detours, heroism,... the word itself tends to create the mindset that the author wants you to have.

iwontberude 2y ago
Quest rhymes with mindless grinding in my mind, go there fetch this, kill that, get the gold or the item, rinse repeat. It’s the opposite of fresh and process focused in my mind. Better yet is define our work as trips (like psychedelic) where the outcome is unknown until the end and the expectations are malleable. Goals and quests are both corporate nerd speak and make me sick.
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. I wonder where those connotations of quest come from. Did you in the past play a lot of computer role playing games? Defining work as trips... I wonder... what kind of work do you do and are you happy with the fruits of your work?

npunt 2y ago

A different name offers a different perspective, because of all the associations with the name. Problems that are hard to solve are often hard because we're stuck on a particular perspective as to how to solve them. Reframing with new associations is a way to gain a new perspective, to look at the problem differently, to gain insight that you previously did not have. This is an extremely common and effective problem solving technique.

jnordwick 2y ago
just bad unreproduceable psychology research. there is zero proof of this. we actually have examples going the other way though. the idea that changing the words used can change your ideas about something is a weak form of the sapir whorf hypothesis, which is close to universally panned in stronger forms and highly suspect in weaker forms except in pop psychology. pinker called a similar idea - changing a word to avoid previous negative connotations - the euphemism treadmill: from retarded to handicapped to disabled to differetly abled, but never changed anybodies views. they just carried them over. its because language is a reflection of our inner thoughts, not the other way around.
- npunt 2y ago
  That's weird because I find value in using this technique in both personal and creative contexts, and these kinds of reframes are used all the time in therapy, in school, with parents talking to their kids, etc. Perhaps the finer points of those studies are not applicable to the topic at hand, which is an individuals strategy to gain new perspective on their own problems, rather than the nth-order effects of proxy words in culture, or researcher's anthropological interpretations and comparisons of languages effect on worldviews across extremely different cultures. I get that it's a popular topic on HN to point out the replicability crisis in psych research, but the nature of the beast of a high level / subjective / messy subject like human psychology is that you have to be extremely precise about what you're testing and what conclusions you draw, or you're at risk of generalizing beyond the data. What you've cited has surface level similarity to the topic at hand, but is quite different in the specifics. Plus it doesn't even stand up to the sniff test - language impacts us. Words impact us. The subtleties of how language is used can have profound effects on how we live our lives. Haven't you ever read a beautiful sentence over and over, or marinated in an obscure word and all its intricacies? This is a common sense proposition.

dionian 2y ago

I think it's subtly insightful because a goal focuses us on the endpoint and a quest focuses us on the journey that we need to undertake to get there. But to each his or her own!

n_plus_1_acc 2y ago