3 ms·

I see nothing really "different" or "better" here, in terms of visuals or ease of use. To that end... I don't see the point in imitating a desktop experience t

I see nothing really "different" or "better" here, in terms of visuals or ease of use. To that end... I don't see the point in imitating a desktop experience that is pretty stagnant and moving in the wrong direction (macOS; I'm a user myself) when there are the decades that preceded Y2K that could be mined for much more usable an interesting desktop experiences. There's BeOS, Amiga Workbench, Atari ST various windowing managers, OS/2, Windows 9x, the list goes on... I still use Mac System 7.x from the mid-1990s which with a few choice extensions is basically equivalent to modern macOS windowing experience. And of course that goes back to the early 1980s with the prior System software and even the late 1970s with Apple Lisa development. Go further! Be more daring!

ComplexSystems 2y ago
You still use System 7?!
- msephton 2y ago
  Yes! Here we go: - Mostly on an iPad Pro, no less: https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2021/04/17/turning-an-ipad-pro-into-the-ultimate-classic-macintosh/ https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2021/04/17/turning-an-ipad-p... - Here's my latest artwork done in System 7: https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2024/07/14/shibuya-pixel-art-contest-2024/#deneba-artworks-for-classic-macintosh https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2024/07/14/shibuya-pixel-art... Believe it or not there are apps that run under System 7 that have no modern equivalents, or their modern counterparts are objectively worse. The vector apps I use on System 7 (Canvas, artWORKS, FreeHand, Expression) run rings round Figma in many important ways.
  - pmarreck 2y ago
    Doesn't Canvas have a modern version via "Canvas X Draw"?
    - msephton 2y ago
      It has the same name, but otherwise I don't believe it is a descendant of the code in the app that I run.
candiddevmike 2y ago
I'm really astounded that macOS window management is so bad. For a company lauded for their UX decisions, how can they accept the current full screen/splitting workflow as "good enough"?
- msephton 2y ago
  I used to work there so it's mind-bogglingly disappointing
- asynchronous 2y ago
  All the devs I know that work on Mac just have the windows casually thrown around and as a windows user with FancyZones I don’t know why but it bothers me so
  - msephton 2y ago
    Not me, I use a combination of Hammerspoon (keyboard) and Tiles app (mouse) to do quarter and third tiling. And I work on a portrait display!
  - pxc 2y ago
    I can't blame your colleagues, in that macOS just doesn't provide good window management tools. But for my part, at least, I typically 'tile' my windows by hand into thirds on my ultrawide monitor with Rectangle, then switch windows exclusively via fuzzy filtering across all windows rather than Command-Tab between apps. (I do occasionally still use Command-`, though.)
- samstave 2y ago
  I have a theory about this "Jobs-ism" (And now that he's dead, "Ives-ism" --- Nobody was seemingly capable to say no to either jobs or ives. Jobs was a visionary for a lot of UX items - however, and this is my opinion-- He was heavily left handed (in thinking and physically) - thus a lot of his UX items are from A) position of supreme leader and B) his physical UX with all things come from a left-handed perspective, which is fantastic for certain things, poor for others) and with Ive -- his over-powering desire to be the HW minimalist wreaked havoc on consumer wallets. If he wasnt such a jerk about refusing a lanyard hook on the iphone - he cost consumer *billions* in cases, screens, etc. Apples outright evil stance on connectors, and forcing their designs upon the consumers costs billions in wasted time, money, hardware, resources, angst etc... I fn hate jonny ive's design decisions around the fragility of the iphones design for aesthetic. Sure it has "gorilla glass" -- but a physical design that ensures that a single drop of the device kills it. Then the decision to put inert glass panel on the REAR of the phone? --- Had Ive ever stepped into any mall in Asia before and around the time the iphone came out he would have noticed the vast market for chotchky-lanyards that were sold in every cell store. Those lanyard were *important* and there were so many stylings. Basically - the folks at apple appear to have never been able to say "yeah, but" -- and no matter what anyone says - the market shows that they could not. How many trillions of resources are in the trash because of aesthetic designs, and how many wasted human conscious hours due to frustratingly obtuse UX interaction have had. There hasnt been an super-productive-revolutionary UX interactions that I feel macOS has given me? (and I know its a cheap fn shot -- but for a visionary, releasing a touch only phone day-one without copy paste shows that UX was NOT the primary facto operandai -- but a profit operandai... Ill die on my hill that jobs wasnt as truly a UX master as history writes himself to be. (Breakout anyone?)
tgv 2y ago
It looks nice, and it looks familiar. That's important. You don't sway people with a UI that's too far from their experiences. And people like eye candy. If you ever have to build a demo, first make sure it looks good. The first impression counts, unfortunately.
- layer8 2y ago
  It depends on where you’re coming from. If you despise all the shallow visual-design oriented fashions of recent-ish times that have generally been degrading the UX, then it doesn’t actually make for a good first impression.
nine_k 2y ago
Speaking of Mac OS, it refuses to add any window management beside manual dragging from first versions until today. The Cosmic environment appears to have a ton of window management features, which I find very nice.
- msephton 2y ago
  I'm not sure of the sources behind your claim about macOS, but I can tell you it is incorrect. There are a lot of advanced window management available in macOS. Exposé/Mission Control, Spaces, tiling, etc. though it's debatable which of these have been successful and which have not.
mhuffman 2y ago
BeOS was streets ahead on OS and hardware. I have a feeling that timing alone is responsible for them not being a household name.
EasyMark 2y ago
A lot of us like boring and "like the past". I leave the experimental stuff to the younglings. Show me something with more utility or a new paradigm and I'm more than willing to give it a go. As it is cosmic desktop is fine and works well for me and has for a couple of years

ComplexSystems 2y ago

You still use System 7?!

msephton 2y ago
Yes! Here we go: - Mostly on an iPad Pro, no less: https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2021/04/17/turning-an-ipad-pro-into-the-ultimate-classic-macintosh/ https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2021/04/17/turning-an-ipad-p... - Here's my latest artwork done in System 7: https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2024/07/14/shibuya-pixel-art-contest-2024/#deneba-artworks-for-classic-macintosh https://blog.gingerbeardman.com/2024/07/14/shibuya-pixel-art... Believe it or not there are apps that run under System 7 that have no modern equivalents, or their modern counterparts are objectively worse. The vector apps I use on System 7 (Canvas, artWORKS, FreeHand, Expression) run rings round Figma in many important ways.
- pmarreck 2y ago
  Doesn't Canvas have a modern version via "Canvas X Draw"?
  - msephton 2y ago
    It has the same name, but otherwise I don't believe it is a descendant of the code in the app that I run.

candiddevmike 2y ago

I'm really astounded that macOS window management is so bad. For a company lauded for their UX decisions, how can they accept the current full screen/splitting workflow as "good enough"?

msephton 2y ago
I used to work there so it's mind-bogglingly disappointing
asynchronous 2y ago
All the devs I know that work on Mac just have the windows casually thrown around and as a windows user with FancyZones I don’t know why but it bothers me so
- msephton 2y ago
  Not me, I use a combination of Hammerspoon (keyboard) and Tiles app (mouse) to do quarter and third tiling. And I work on a portrait display!
- pxc 2y ago
  I can't blame your colleagues, in that macOS just doesn't provide good window management tools. But for my part, at least, I typically 'tile' my windows by hand into thirds on my ultrawide monitor with Rectangle, then switch windows exclusively via fuzzy filtering across all windows rather than Command-Tab between apps. (I do occasionally still use Command-`, though.)
samstave 2y ago
I have a theory about this "Jobs-ism" (And now that he's dead, "Ives-ism" --- Nobody was seemingly capable to say no to either jobs or ives. Jobs was a visionary for a lot of UX items - however, and this is my opinion-- He was heavily left handed (in thinking and physically) - thus a lot of his UX items are from A) position of supreme leader and B) his physical UX with all things come from a left-handed perspective, which is fantastic for certain things, poor for others) and with Ive -- his over-powering desire to be the HW minimalist wreaked havoc on consumer wallets. If he wasnt such a jerk about refusing a lanyard hook on the iphone - he cost consumer *billions* in cases, screens, etc. Apples outright evil stance on connectors, and forcing their designs upon the consumers costs billions in wasted time, money, hardware, resources, angst etc... I fn hate jonny ive's design decisions around the fragility of the iphones design for aesthetic. Sure it has "gorilla glass" -- but a physical design that ensures that a single drop of the device kills it. Then the decision to put inert glass panel on the REAR of the phone? --- Had Ive ever stepped into any mall in Asia before and around the time the iphone came out he would have noticed the vast market for chotchky-lanyards that were sold in every cell store. Those lanyard were *important* and there were so many stylings. Basically - the folks at apple appear to have never been able to say "yeah, but" -- and no matter what anyone says - the market shows that they could not. How many trillions of resources are in the trash because of aesthetic designs, and how many wasted human conscious hours due to frustratingly obtuse UX interaction have had. There hasnt been an super-productive-revolutionary UX interactions that I feel macOS has given me? (and I know its a cheap fn shot -- but for a visionary, releasing a touch only phone day-one without copy paste shows that UX was NOT the primary facto operandai -- but a profit operandai... Ill die on my hill that jobs wasnt as truly a UX master as history writes himself to be. (Breakout anyone?)

tgv 2y ago

It looks nice, and it looks familiar. That's important. You don't sway people with a UI that's too far from their experiences. And people like eye candy. If you ever have to build a demo, first make sure it looks good. The first impression counts, unfortunately.

layer8 2y ago
It depends on where you’re coming from. If you despise all the shallow visual-design oriented fashions of recent-ish times that have generally been degrading the UX, then it doesn’t actually make for a good first impression.

nine_k 2y ago

Speaking of Mac OS, it refuses to add any window management beside manual dragging from first versions until today. The Cosmic environment appears to have a ton of window management features, which I find very nice.

msephton 2y ago
I'm not sure of the sources behind your claim about macOS, but I can tell you it is incorrect. There are a lot of advanced window management available in macOS. Exposé/Mission Control, Spaces, tiling, etc. though it's debatable which of these have been successful and which have not.

mhuffman 2y ago

BeOS was streets ahead on OS and hardware. I have a feeling that timing alone is responsible for them not being a household name.

EasyMark 2y ago

A lot of us like boring and "like the past". I leave the experimental stuff to the younglings. Show me something with more utility or a new paradigm and I'm more than willing to give it a go. As it is cosmic desktop is fine and works well for me and has for a couple of years