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Why oh why is still using Micro USB?! I was hoping that the next iteration would start using USB-C even if it costed a bit more per-board.

by latsu 2y ago

jsheard 2y ago
Their partners already have tons of alternative boards ready to go, including a few which are drop-in replacements for the Pico, if you don't mind spending a bit more for USB-C: https://www.raspberrypi.com/for-industry/powered-by/product-catalogue/?category=RP2350 https://www.raspberrypi.com/for-industry/powered-by/product-...
- latsu 2y ago
  The problem is most of the boards from partners are specialized with different hardware add-ons and have a significant markup at about 10 USD a board, which makes it harder to justify buying a handful of boards to tinker with. It's quite unfortunate.
  - jsheard 2y ago
    That's true, but give it a few weeks and AliExpress will be full of dirt cheap Pico/ProMicro-compatible RP2350 boards with USB-C. I recently bought a dozen RP2040 ProMicros with USB-C and 16MB flash for about $2.70 each, and there's variants with smaller flash for even less. This store, if you're wondering: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006130019224.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006130019224.html
    - stiltzkin 2y ago
      Are this almost identical to the rpi so I can install rpi OS?
      - pdpi 2y ago
        No, these are microcontrollers. They're the thing you'd put inside a device that needs a tiny bit of smarts, like Raspberry Pi's debug probe[0]. The case I have for my RPi5[1] uses an rp2040 to run the thermal management logic. 0. https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/debug-probe.html https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/d... 1. https://argon40.com/en-gb/products/argon-one-v3-m-2-nvme-case https://argon40.com/en-gb/products/argon-one-v3-m-2-nvme-cas...
      - cptskippy 2y ago
        The Pico and Pico 2 are micro-controllers, not SBCs like the other Raspberry Pis.
- gs17 2y ago
  For anyone else who wanted to see the Challenger+ board's specs/price (for some reason the rpi page only links to a photo of it): https://ilabs.se/product/challenger-rp2350-wifi-ble/?&currency=USD https://ilabs.se/product/challenger-rp2350-wifi-ble/?&curren...
05 2y ago
At least microUSB always works, with Chinese USB-C boards they skimp on the CC pull-ups so the ports don't work with typeC to typeC cables.
- AnotherGoodName 2y ago
  I suspect the microUSB would actually fail in OTG mode for the same reasons in that case though? It's the same thing in terms of needing extra resistors.
- ComputerGuru 2y ago
  Oh, I was trying to understand why cheap chiniseum USB-C-powered products off Amazon were only charging from a cheap USB-A brick and not from my quality USB C chargers.
  - larme 2y ago
    try combining a type c male to USB female adapter and a USB A to type c cable together to get a working type c to type c cable
- knodi123 2y ago
  Ugh, that one was killing me the other day. I went through 3 different cables before I found a hardware designer on the company's discord who could explain the issue.
- mrkstu 2y ago
  Ok, that explains it. I have a usb powered LED lamp that I’ve been trying to recharge via a c to c cable- but it only works with a b to c. Thought it might be the cable at first, but it was general. Just couldn’t think of a reason why it wasn’t supported though…
asadalt 2y ago
doesn’t usb-c significantly increase the components required? unless you skimp and just replace the connecter only, which won’t always work.
- bschwindHN 2y ago
  It just needs two resistors on the CC lines. My guess is the RPi foundation has a _ton_ of extra micro USB connectors they want to use up.
- 0x457 2y ago
  No, it just needs 2 extra resistors to work properly, but will work as-is if you use USB-A to USB-C cables and as long as you don't pull more power than available by default (i.e. you can request 3A @ 5V just by adding two resistors, but without it you're limited to USB's defaults) In the past, when usb-c just got introduced micro usb ports for significantly cheaper than usb-c, so it made some sense. Today, it makes no sense.
  - seba_dos1 2y ago
    You can't request 3A via resistors and you don't need to. You can advertise being able to source 3A via resistors. The sink does not advertise how much power it draws (unless it speaks PD), sink's responsibility is to check for what the source advertises (either via resistors or PD) before attempting to draw more power than USB default if you want to be compliant, which boils down to a simple comparator/ADC reading. Simple sinks just use two 5.1k resistors for pull-downs, no matter how much power they want to draw - and they always need these resistors (two for receptacles, one for plugs), otherwise they won't work with USB-C sources at all.
    - 0x457 2y ago
      Right, my bad, you're correct. For some reason, I thought it must be on both sides like that.
gregmac 2y ago
Contrary view: I don't mind, because of two things: 1: I still have a ton of micro-USB cables, and a decreasing number of things to use them for. Some are unused, still in unopened packages. 2: Devices like this don't get moved and plugged/unplugged frequently, which is what kills the connector.
naikrovek 2y ago
Probably so they can say that it's a drop-in upgrade over the Pico 1. It's not a drop-in upgrade if you have to redesign your project's case to use it.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Funnily enough, they advertise one of the partner boards with USB C in that way anyways: > Picossci2 Breakout is a drop-in replacement for Pico 2, with a USB-C connector.
GloriousKoji 2y ago
I understand all the reason why but I'm still disappointed with the USB 1.1 controller instead of a USB2.0
bangaladore 2y ago
Probably to maintain the exact same form factor as the Pico (1)

Why oh why is still using Micro USB?! I was hoping that the next iteration would start using USB-C even if it costed a bit more per-board.

by latsu 2y ago

Why oh why is still using Micro USB?! I was hoping that the next iteration would start using USB-C even if it costed a bit more per-board.

jsheard 2y ago

Their partners already have tons of alternative boards ready to go, including a few which are drop-in replacements for the Pico, if you don't mind spending a bit more for USB-C: https://www.raspberrypi.com/for-industry/powered-by/product-catalogue/?category=RP2350 https://www.raspberrypi.com/for-industry/powered-by/product-...

latsu 2y ago
The problem is most of the boards from partners are specialized with different hardware add-ons and have a significant markup at about 10 USD a board, which makes it harder to justify buying a handful of boards to tinker with. It's quite unfortunate.
- jsheard 2y ago
  That's true, but give it a few weeks and AliExpress will be full of dirt cheap Pico/ProMicro-compatible RP2350 boards with USB-C. I recently bought a dozen RP2040 ProMicros with USB-C and 16MB flash for about $2.70 each, and there's variants with smaller flash for even less. This store, if you're wondering: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006130019224.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006130019224.html
  - stiltzkin 2y ago
    Are this almost identical to the rpi so I can install rpi OS?
    - pdpi 2y ago
      No, these are microcontrollers. They're the thing you'd put inside a device that needs a tiny bit of smarts, like Raspberry Pi's debug probe[0]. The case I have for my RPi5[1] uses an rp2040 to run the thermal management logic. 0. https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/debug-probe.html https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/d... 1. https://argon40.com/en-gb/products/argon-one-v3-m-2-nvme-case https://argon40.com/en-gb/products/argon-one-v3-m-2-nvme-cas...
    - cptskippy 2y ago
      The Pico and Pico 2 are micro-controllers, not SBCs like the other Raspberry Pis.
gs17 2y ago
For anyone else who wanted to see the Challenger+ board's specs/price (for some reason the rpi page only links to a photo of it): https://ilabs.se/product/challenger-rp2350-wifi-ble/?&currency=USD https://ilabs.se/product/challenger-rp2350-wifi-ble/?&curren...

05 2y ago

At least microUSB always works, with Chinese USB-C boards they skimp on the CC pull-ups so the ports don't work with typeC to typeC cables.

AnotherGoodName 2y ago
I suspect the microUSB would actually fail in OTG mode for the same reasons in that case though? It's the same thing in terms of needing extra resistors.
ComputerGuru 2y ago
Oh, I was trying to understand why cheap chiniseum USB-C-powered products off Amazon were only charging from a cheap USB-A brick and not from my quality USB C chargers.
- larme 2y ago
  try combining a type c male to USB female adapter and a USB A to type c cable together to get a working type c to type c cable
knodi123 2y ago
Ugh, that one was killing me the other day. I went through 3 different cables before I found a hardware designer on the company's discord who could explain the issue.
mrkstu 2y ago
Ok, that explains it. I have a usb powered LED lamp that I’ve been trying to recharge via a c to c cable- but it only works with a b to c. Thought it might be the cable at first, but it was general. Just couldn’t think of a reason why it wasn’t supported though…

asadalt 2y ago

doesn’t usb-c significantly increase the components required? unless you skimp and just replace the connecter only, which won’t always work.

bschwindHN 2y ago
It just needs two resistors on the CC lines. My guess is the RPi foundation has a _ton_ of extra micro USB connectors they want to use up.
0x457 2y ago
No, it just needs 2 extra resistors to work properly, but will work as-is if you use USB-A to USB-C cables and as long as you don't pull more power than available by default (i.e. you can request 3A @ 5V just by adding two resistors, but without it you're limited to USB's defaults) In the past, when usb-c just got introduced micro usb ports for significantly cheaper than usb-c, so it made some sense. Today, it makes no sense.
- seba_dos1 2y ago
  You can't request 3A via resistors and you don't need to. You can advertise being able to source 3A via resistors. The sink does not advertise how much power it draws (unless it speaks PD), sink's responsibility is to check for what the source advertises (either via resistors or PD) before attempting to draw more power than USB default if you want to be compliant, which boils down to a simple comparator/ADC reading. Simple sinks just use two 5.1k resistors for pull-downs, no matter how much power they want to draw - and they always need these resistors (two for receptacles, one for plugs), otherwise they won't work with USB-C sources at all.
  - 0x457 2y ago
    Right, my bad, you're correct. For some reason, I thought it must be on both sides like that.

gregmac 2y ago

Contrary view: I don't mind, because of two things: 1: I still have a ton of micro-USB cables, and a decreasing number of things to use them for. Some are unused, still in unopened packages. 2: Devices like this don't get moved and plugged/unplugged frequently, which is what kills the connector.

naikrovek 2y ago

Probably so they can say that it's a drop-in upgrade over the Pico 1. It's not a drop-in upgrade if you have to redesign your project's case to use it.

zamadatix 2y ago
Funnily enough, they advertise one of the partner boards with USB C in that way anyways: > Picossci2 Breakout is a drop-in replacement for Pico 2, with a USB-C connector.

GloriousKoji 2y ago

I understand all the reason why but I'm still disappointed with the USB 1.1 controller instead of a USB2.0

bangaladore 2y ago

Probably to maintain the exact same form factor as the Pico (1)