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Sorry in advance if this is "a bit" flamebait-y, but the irony is too strong for me to not point out: Working around another person’s problematic behavior an

Sorry in advance if this is "a bit" flamebait-y, but the irony is too strong for me to not point out: Working around another person’s problematic behavior and having to teach newcomers to the group to do the same is a known psychological antipattern. When talking about "neurodivergent" people having communication issues, but the now enshrined "use my pronouns or else" thing is conveniently forgotten.

hungie 2y ago
There's a huge gap between someone being an odious asshole whom everyone just accepts, and, "this is how I'd prefer to be addressed". Like, if a "Robert" says "I prefer Bob" and you still call them Robert, you're choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says, "I prefer they/them" and you use her, you are choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says "I will be an asshole in public and won't accept critique on that" and everyone is like "this guy's an ass but deal with it" that's a problem with the community that should be addressed.
- a-french-anon 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - csirac2 2y ago
    Can I just say what a genuinely fascinating perspective you have there That pronouns are somehow an exercise of power that must be submitted to, and not just a common courtesy because we're not all sensitive snowflakes And that this is in any way remotely comparable to being tortured and killed for religious beliefs I wonder how you feel about the nearly 1.7% of people born intersex that you meet and definitely work with, that have been newborns treated by your own GP... occupying possibly the "wrong" pronoun according to whatever this week's definition of Definitely Binary means I'm sure people getting tortured and killed for religious beliefs will definitely relate to this discussion
    - a-french-anon 2y ago
      > not just a common courtesy because we're not all sensitive snowflakes It's not courtesy if it's non consensual, same way that wealth redistribution isn't charity. Statistically and rhetorically speaking, the pronouns enforcers' beneficiaries are the sensitive snowflakes who can't do with a few people not indulging in their delusions. You completely misunderstand the point. The vastly different level of threat itself is of no importance to the comparison, since the goal isn't to enact said threat, it's to force people to publicly betray their convictions, to mentally castrate them. It's nothing more than Orwell's "2 + 2 = 5", if you prefer this analogy. Maybe it's a special snowflake thing to want to live with your head held high, standing for what you think is true, what do I know... > I wonder how you feel about the nearly 1.7% of people born intersex that you meet and definitely work with There's nothing to feel, these people are neither male or female and would indeed deserve a specific pronoun, but pragmatism would make it as logical as making all cars fit for one-armed people. Also, your 1.7% is a bit biased, reading its source from Wikipedia's article.
      - csirac2 2y ago
        > It's not courtesy if it's non consensual, same way that wealth redistribution isn't charity I truly don't understand what you are talking about. When I was in primary school, and perhaps in no small part due to some prosopagnosia, I was unable to determine the gender of my peers reliably. This occasionally resulted in violence as I misgendered peers. Do you live in a part of the world where you can use whatever pronouns you want on people? If no, what exactly are we disagreeing about? > standing for Can you explain what, exactly, it is that you're standing for? > There's nothing to feel, these people are neither male or female and would indeed deserve a specific pronoun, but pragmatism would make it as logical as making all cars fit for one-armed people That's why they generally choose one or the other? Occasionally, someone will prefer a "non-standard" pronoun but I have never faced someone that didn't accept "they" (which, by the way, was my coping strategy in my childhood - when in doubt, use "they"! This was in pre-internet era of regional Queensland, Australia, where we barely had dictionaries, let alone knew what a pronoun even was) You've obviously put a lot of energy and thought into this issue but I'm not exactly sure what the issue /is/

hungie 2y ago

There's a huge gap between someone being an odious asshole whom everyone just accepts, and, "this is how I'd prefer to be addressed". Like, if a "Robert" says "I prefer Bob" and you still call them Robert, you're choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says, "I prefer they/them" and you use her, you are choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says "I will be an asshole in public and won't accept critique on that" and everyone is like "this guy's an ass but deal with it" that's a problem with the community that should be addressed.

a-french-anon 2y ago
[flagged]
- csirac2 2y ago
  Can I just say what a genuinely fascinating perspective you have there That pronouns are somehow an exercise of power that must be submitted to, and not just a common courtesy because we're not all sensitive snowflakes And that this is in any way remotely comparable to being tortured and killed for religious beliefs I wonder how you feel about the nearly 1.7% of people born intersex that you meet and definitely work with, that have been newborns treated by your own GP... occupying possibly the "wrong" pronoun according to whatever this week's definition of Definitely Binary means I'm sure people getting tortured and killed for religious beliefs will definitely relate to this discussion
  - a-french-anon 2y ago
    > not just a common courtesy because we're not all sensitive snowflakes It's not courtesy if it's non consensual, same way that wealth redistribution isn't charity. Statistically and rhetorically speaking, the pronouns enforcers' beneficiaries are the sensitive snowflakes who can't do with a few people not indulging in their delusions. You completely misunderstand the point. The vastly different level of threat itself is of no importance to the comparison, since the goal isn't to enact said threat, it's to force people to publicly betray their convictions, to mentally castrate them. It's nothing more than Orwell's "2 + 2 = 5", if you prefer this analogy. Maybe it's a special snowflake thing to want to live with your head held high, standing for what you think is true, what do I know... > I wonder how you feel about the nearly 1.7% of people born intersex that you meet and definitely work with There's nothing to feel, these people are neither male or female and would indeed deserve a specific pronoun, but pragmatism would make it as logical as making all cars fit for one-armed people. Also, your 1.7% is a bit biased, reading its source from Wikipedia's article.
    - csirac2 2y ago
      > It's not courtesy if it's non consensual, same way that wealth redistribution isn't charity I truly don't understand what you are talking about. When I was in primary school, and perhaps in no small part due to some prosopagnosia, I was unable to determine the gender of my peers reliably. This occasionally resulted in violence as I misgendered peers. Do you live in a part of the world where you can use whatever pronouns you want on people? If no, what exactly are we disagreeing about? > standing for Can you explain what, exactly, it is that you're standing for? > There's nothing to feel, these people are neither male or female and would indeed deserve a specific pronoun, but pragmatism would make it as logical as making all cars fit for one-armed people That's why they generally choose one or the other? Occasionally, someone will prefer a "non-standard" pronoun but I have never faced someone that didn't accept "they" (which, by the way, was my coping strategy in my childhood - when in doubt, use "they"! This was in pre-internet era of regional Queensland, Australia, where we barely had dictionaries, let alone knew what a pronoun even was) You've obviously put a lot of energy and thought into this issue but I'm not exactly sure what the issue /is/