12 ms·

Three month suspension for Python core developer

114 points by mont_tag 2y ago

hungie 2y ago
Given the long list of things, as an outsider, it seems like this person was quite disruptive to the community. It doesn't seem like there's a "this one post was sus", but rather, "we've exhausted other options after repeated violations of our rules across many, many threads." This seems like basic moderation of a community, and good on the mods for applying their rules even to a core developer?
- Ukv 2y ago
  Reading Tim's posts gives me the exact opposite impression. As far as I can tell, his "defense of "reverse racism"" was simply: > Can’t say I’ve paid it much attention in recent years. Last time I did, “all races can be prejudiced, but only whites can be racist” was the Correct View™. [...] > While it still largely makes good sense to me, I don’t want to see the PSF insisting that any other view can only be held in “bad faith”. Other views are common too. Among people of my age, very common. I can attest from personal experience that some people near my age never even heard of the view the PSF endorses. [0] So, to my understanding, PSF's stance is that only white people can be racist. Tim's supposed offence wasn't even disagreeing with that, but saying that people who don't share that stance aren't acting in bad faith. The slur alluded to was when discussing removal of a PyPI package named "slut". Instead of using the word directly, Tim said: > It was about kicking a package off of PyPI, because its docs repeatedly used a word that Dan Akroyd used to apply to Jane Curtin (brilliant comic actors from America’s “Saturday Night Live” TV show, but back in the days when it was genuinely funny). [1] It all seems exceptionally mild to me. I'm not sure if this is an escalation of purity standards, or those in power wanted him gone for other reasons (like the mentioned questioning of PSF decisions) so twisted anything they could find to match CoC terms. [0]: https://discuss.python.org/t/im-leaving-too/58408/10 https://discuss.python.org/t/im-leaving-too/58408/10 [1]: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696/150 https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed...
  - jakfhg 2y ago
    The wanted him gone because he repeatedly has pointed out double standards. That is to say, the ruling class who verbally and with empty phrases assert their morality are as undiplomatic as the dissenters they prosecute. They are even more rude and certainly more mean, because issuing official sounding invented negative character pictures is far more damaging than a single person occasionally going off on a rant. Python-dev is a now full blown dictatorship, and speaking the truth is not allowed. They are probably also afraid because Google fired the Python team that contained some members of the ruling class, so they double down.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
linotype 2y ago
> Dismissing unacceptable behavior of others as a “neurodivergent” trait, which is problematic because it creates a stereotype that neurodivergent people are hard to interact with and need special treatment. Why shouldn’t neurodivergent people get special treatment if they have a disorder/issue? Seems like accommodations should be made to promote inclusion.
- hungie 2y ago
  This isn't what that says. This is saying that when a neurodiverse person breaks decorum (read: is a giant asshole), the correct behavior is to let that person know they are having an impact and give them grace to grow their skills. Saying, "they are allowed to be assholes because they are neurodiverse" does nothing to help the neurodiverse person, and creates a stigma. I'm autistic. I constantly tell myself, "being autistic is not an excuse for being an asshhole. I have to work harder to not be an asshole, but I can learn it ".
  - red1reaper 2y ago
    I mean, there are situations where there could be a bit wiggling room to allow a neurodiverse person to break decorum a bit. For example, if someone has tourette they could be excused a bit the same way an autistic person can be excused a bit for not noticing a subtle social cue. But there is a clear difference between allowing a bit of leeway to break decorum and allowing one to be a massive asshole. I think there is a balance, like everything in life.
    - hungie 2y ago
      [dead]
  - zahlman 2y ago
    The issue is that the people in charge in the Python community are not "letting [neurodivergent people] know they are having [a negative] impact". At best they are simply shutting down opinions they don't like, regardless of who expresses them. In many cases, though, complaints about those posts are presented more like open invitations to debate, natural responses to which are then treated as further evidence of malfeasance. (The entire situation reminds me very strongly of how James Damore was treated at Google.) Certainly there is no attempt to justify that talking about whatever issue is inappropriate, and certainly there is no attempt to connect such justification to the Code of Conduct. (Please ctrl-F that Code of Conduct - https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/ https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/ - for any mention of "reverse sexism" or "reverse racism", for example. Or try to find the part that explains how typing "XXXX" and giving hints about what specific naughty word it stands for, in the context of relating a story about taking action to block a PyPI package given that name, is verboten.) With respect, I don't think you actually have to work harder. The onus should be on others to recognize that you genuinely aren't being an asshole just because you, e.g., said something that makes them uncomfortable or challenges their worldview. Certainly they should be expected to recognize that, if you appear to understand emoji differently from how they do, perhaps it would be kinder for them to try to figure out how you're understanding them, rather than objecting to how you use them based on that understanding. But that is not a courtesy that was extended to Mr. Peters (nor to myself), as far as I can see.
huhkerrf 2y ago
> Defending “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism”, concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment. > Overloading the discussion of the bylaws change (47 out of 177 posts in topic at the time the moderators closed the topic)... The later result of the vote showed 81% support for the most controversial of the bylaws changes, which demonstrates the controversy was blown out of proportion. These two are insane. I'm almost speechless. The rest don't sound good, and would be enough for a suspension on their own if presented truthfully. So why put those first two? Why put them first? EDIT: Since no one has linked to it yet, this seems to be the discussion referenced. I haven't gotten to the end of it yet, I admit, but what I read so far looks like one person in particular disagreeing with the prevailing opinion in a fairy respectful way: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696 https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed...
- esperent 2y ago
  Maybe because they are less obviously bad but they were nonetheless the biggest issues. I've found this before with problematic individuals on forums. They rarely break "obviously bad" rules because they know they'll get the ban hammer and everyone will agree they they deserved it. Instead they cause just as much havoc and disruption by doing things that don't seem that bad when they are accused of them. Eventually they cross the line and get banned anyway, but the moderators have to struggle to explain why and if it leaks into another forum you'll get a ton of people defending the problematic person and saying the mods overreacted. When in reality everyone's probably been struggling to deal with this person's disruptions for months or even years.
  - huhkerrf 2y ago
    That's fair, but those two things shouldn't come into play at all. Just leave them out. Is this group saying that if you disagree with the idea that only white people can be racist that you can't be a contributor? I'm honestly trying to find a good faith explanation that's better than that.
chmod775 2y ago
This is hard to evaluate without a reference to the discussion the individual is supposed to have negatively impacted. This may be anything between shutting down someone derailing the discussion by spouting genuine nonsense, to being overreaching and paternalistic, punishing for not conforming to the preordained outcome of a farcical "discussion". There's enough of either going around nowadays.
- hungie 2y ago
  Seems like it was many many threads, and the mods looked at them in aggregate. Though they did call out one thread in particular, it doesn't seem like that one thread was the primary motivator here. This reads like mods, doing modding, which is always a judgement call and never black and white.
unethical_ban 2y ago
My takeaway: The suspended user seems exhausting, and the Python community has skin thinner than Intel's latest node.
saulpw 2y ago
Tim Peters, author of timsort and longtime Python contributer, is a graybeard spaz like Stallman: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696/150?page=8 https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed... I know this type, they definitely know how to belabor a point, and their language can be "colorful". I read through a bunch of comments, and on a scale from 0 to Terry Davis, Tim seems like a 1 or 2, annoying and crotchety but well-meaning and mild-mannered (Linus would be an 8 on this scale). Suspension is a drastic move, and it's hard both to suspend[0] and to be suspended, so I hope the PSF engaged with him offline first. [0] https://fosstodon.org/@Yhg1s@social.coop/112922140875432669 https://fosstodon.org/@Yhg1s@social.coop/112922140875432669
- kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
  [dead]
- nusl 2y ago
  Somehow using Terry Davis as the top-end of your scale is quite funny, but I suppose accurate.
  - cowboylowrez 2y ago
    its not useful, I can't tell what a 1 or a 2 is if I don't know the value of "Terry Davis". 1 or 2 is bad if "Terry Davis" is 3 but we don't know that.
    - saulpw 2y ago
      The top of the scale is always 10.
      - cowboylowrez 2y ago
        TIL! checks multimeter
      - sgerenser 2y ago
nusl 2y ago
Seems justified. In any workplace I think you'd face a stern talking to or lose your job for this.
WCSTombs 2y ago
> Overloading the discussion of the bylaws change (47 out of 177 posts in topic at the time the moderators closed the topic), which created an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt... > Defending “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism”, concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment. So simply having an opinion and expressing it counts as "intimidation" now? I have to point out that one aspect of an organization's culture that actually creates hostility and exclusion is punishing people for engaging in good-faith discussion. (And if the dialogue in question was not in good faith, why not put that at the top?) It's not enough for someone to engage in the process and help the team reach the best outcome. Their opinion must also be the correct one, or else. Look, I'm an outsider here, so there are obviously a lot of details I'm missing, but this doesn't look good to someone reading it without context, and I don't think it makes the PSF look good. How it reads is "hey, we're writing to let you know we're banning someone. We won't say who it is, and we won't say exactly what they did, but the two top things came down to differences of opinion." I would love to be wrong about all of this, because I especially don't like seeing it in an open-source organization that's so integral to my own work.
- orf 2y ago
  The thread is here: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696 https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed... The person in question is Tim Peters. It’s weird to not name them, but not linking to the thread is appropriate.
  - JonChesterfield 2y ago
    I skimmed through that looking for the context. It seems to be that Tim didn't want the governing group to have even more power to kick people out of the project, argued his point eloquently and was then kicked off the project. E.g. > Like David too, I’m not opposed to making it impossible for the Board to do this on its own - I just want a higher bar than a simple majority vote. My years on the Board matched David’s experience: votes were usually unanimous. If there’s reasonable disagreement, under most systems of juistice that favors the accused Initial impression to an outsider is that python's council is in the wrong here. Read a fair amount of that thread now and Tim seems pretty reasonable to me. Which does align with my mistrust of CoC structures I suppose.
pf_moore 2y ago
TW: Sexual abuse For anyone on the outside, this appears to be an intensely rash decision. I can rest assured that Tim Peters found trauma in the experience of being suspended as the level of appropriate communication is never met, neither in this announcement, nor in Lukaz Langa's persistent references [1] [2] to rapists when discussing conduct on an internet forum. I'm sure there are reasons to become a python core developer, but open hostility and defaulting to homogeneity have rarely been experienced as acceptance by me; they simply scale in ways easily implemented across a wide audience. De-escalation and finding middle ground without validating harmful behavior do not scale well but then again, there has never been a capitalist movement behind finding a solution which works 1: https://discuss.python.org/t/how-can-we-better-support-neurodivergent-newcomers-to-the-community/58724/5 https://discuss.python.org/t/how-can-we-better-support-neuro... 2: https://discuss.python.org/t/discussion-about-recent-coc-events/5778/35 https://discuss.python.org/t/discussion-about-recent-coc-eve...
- a-french-anon 2y ago
  Sorry in advance if this is "a bit" flamebait-y, but the irony is too strong for me to not point out: Working around another person’s problematic behavior and having to teach newcomers to the group to do the same is a known psychological antipattern. When talking about "neurodivergent" people having communication issues, but the now enshrined "use my pronouns or else" thing is conveniently forgotten.
  - hungie 2y ago
    There's a huge gap between someone being an odious asshole whom everyone just accepts, and, "this is how I'd prefer to be addressed". Like, if a "Robert" says "I prefer Bob" and you still call them Robert, you're choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says, "I prefer they/them" and you use her, you are choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says "I will be an asshole in public and won't accept critique on that" and everyone is like "this guy's an ass but deal with it" that's a problem with the community that should be addressed.
    - 2y ago
rowanG077 2y ago
Very bad look. They ask for discussion but when someone brings them counterpoints they suspend them for three months. I read the discussion and I'm assuming it's about Tim Peters. But his responses seem normal and not at all something that even almost should warrant a ban. This is almost cartoonish level of power abuse.
- bankcust08385 2y ago
  There ought to be an SNL Western sketch where robbers and cowboys act and interact like FOSS software developers revolving around a theme of "Agree with my social framework and do as I say, or I kill you!"
JonChesterfield 2y ago
Codes of conduct all feature worthiness being assessed by a small group of special individuals who then declare judgement without rationale. There are competing political systems to that one. The CoC enthusiasts are (likely to be) based in democratic systems so ignorance is not their reason for choosing this structure. A couple of groups I'm involved with have gone down the mandatory code of conduct route. I do not feel safer with a mechanism for summary execution in place. Specifically if I disagree with one of the chosen, they can solve that disagreement by excommunication. Thus when one of them spews insane nonsense the project tends to take damage instead of discussing saner alternatives. Worse, the connections of friendship / nepotism can be hard to detect from outside the inner circle, so disagreeing with anyone might be game over. Thus the system rots. But at least it gave power to the few for a period of time. My primary takeaway from this particular case is that Tim seems more reasonable than the governing board so I'm less likely to use Python in future - both because squashing discussion usually leads to technical decay and because the project as a whole looks more likely to implode over time.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  Codes of Conducts are "cider house rules" that are rarely or never followed with consistency or fairness. As such, they are absolutely pointless because the social contract is already implicit. Their existence merely reinforces a form of elitism. > The name "The Cider House Rules" refers to the list of rules that migrant workers are supposed to follow at the Ocean View Orchards. However, none of them can read, and they are completely unaware of the rules – which have been posted for years. [Basically, they're a EULA.] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cider_House_Rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cider_House_Rules
mhh__ 2y ago
I haven't read the thread/s yet but this kind of thing always sets off an alarm in my head, lots of programmers are basically socially retarded in many ways, what happens if the bar for exclusion starts to drop? I also don't like the "the battle ground for the ideology of tomorrow is this programing forum!" mindset but that's slightly deeper.
subjectsigma 2y ago
I read stuff like this and think to myself that contributing to a large open source project simply isn’t worth it
- bankcust08385 2y ago
  Yep. I was banned from the Ruby community on Github for literally nothing misinterpretation without any chance of clarification. That's the sort of standard FOSS short-shrift, rude, humorless, victimhood-point counting, cliquey, infantile elitism that is the norm rather than the exception. Communities who let in the crybullies, dramatic lawyers, and narcissists to run things dissipate into shit. Forgiveness, tolerance, chill, and benefit-of-the-doubt are lost arts.
  - gjvc 2y ago
    Communities who let in the crybullies, dramatic lawyers, and narcissists to run things dissipate into shit. Forgiveness, tolerance, chill, and benefit-of-the-doubt are lost arts. I need to print this out and frame it. same can be said for many companies.
    - bankcust08385 2y ago
      Maybe we should print these on T-shirts with a brand like RDH - ReturnDecentHumans.
mhh__ 2y ago
Perhaps it's time for an anti-racist fork of a python. Maybe the JIT could only turn on subject to a blood test.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  Sarcasm noted. Interestingly, this has been tried before[1] prior to DNA testing and apparently DNA testing doesn't provide the desired results since indigenous ancestry is apparently rarer than is socially-acceptable. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws
znpy 2y ago
I agree that preventing "ideological takeover" is a good aim. But I think most people don't see the main issue: ideological takeovers can happen both for the side you're rooting for and for the opposite sides. Both ideological far-right and ideological far-left people can attempt a takeover. It's in the best interest of everybody to try and prevent any ideological takeover.
ksjhtga 2y ago
The "council" members have chased away all reasonable people. One of the problems is that 90 core developers can vote for the council, but virtually all of them are inactive. So they never set foot on GitHub or even the discussion platforms. They have no clue what is going on and still think everything is like in the good old times. Couple this with the fact that only ragingly power hungry people apply for the council. There is a severe shortage of candidates. So, in the elections the nasty people get something like 30 out of 90 votes. Since hardly anyone of the electorate has the faintest idea of what is actually going on (see above) and relies on official spin stories of the council members, who block opposing opinions, they can do what they like. All people who oppose the inner circle are removed, defamed and silenced. This is like (hypothetically) Trump first banning a Democrat from voting and then removing him from the U.S. entirely.
BigParm 2y ago
Introducing the new PSF 1.0 license! The software herein can be used, without restriction, by all parties who believe only whites can be racist.
ponderings 2y ago
Reads like Wikipedia. One thing I learn there is that every accusation should be excessively sourced. People who don't do that aren't necessarily lying but they shouldn't be trusted.
andrew-ei-grad 2y ago
"Core team members are expected to act as role models for the community." Seriously? Who on earth could possibly say that Tim Peters isn't the embodiment of this? It’s utterly ridiculous to even question whether he’s a role model. This kind of talk is completely out of touch with reality.
andrew-ei-grad 2y ago
It often feels like we've lost the ability to truly connect with each other as human beings, replacing genuine respect and understanding with hypocrisy and superficiality. In today's society, there's a growing sense that many of our conversations and actions are driven more by a need to conform to trends than by authentic values. When we start dividing ourselves and others into categories based on race, gender, origin, or other characteristics, we lose sight of our shared humanity. Instead of recognizing each individual as a person with unique thoughts and feelings, we resort to generalizations and stereotypes, leading to further division and alienation. As a society, we need to remember that, above all, we are all human beings. We must listen to each other, understand, and accept our differences, while also recognizing that we have much more in common than what separates us. Sincerity, respect, and empathy are the qualities that help us stay connected as humans, despite our differences. Additionally, it's crucial that we approach the communication styles of elderly individuals with greater attention and tolerance. Their way of expressing themselves might differ from what we’re used to, shaped by different experiences and cultural contexts, but this doesn’t make their perspectives any less valuable. We should strive to be more understanding and patient, recognizing that everyone has something important to contribute, regardless of how they communicate. Let's reflect on how our words and actions impact others, and make an effort to be more mindful of those around us. Being human means understanding and feeling, not just following social norms or external pressures.
SuaveSteve 2y ago
How do we stop this overindulgent neuroticism in leadership? Open source really brings out a certain type of ass.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  Maybe allow board membership/de-membership by popular vote of the entire community?
Tade0 2y ago
The Tim Peters? I dug into that link where SNL is mentioned and honestly the connection made there to me seems a bit of a stretch. I'm not in the Python ecosystem but I've seen this sort of drama in the Node.js community and, aside from resulting in a fork, it spurred a debate about governance of the project and an eventual change.
- benmmurphy 2y ago
  I thought he was just trying to allude to the word slut without actually saying it. They were talking about a package being banned because it was a wordplay on a slur and another package and I guess the name of the package was 'SLUT' and the other package was 'LUT' (pylut?). > One of the very few split decisions I recall from my Board days would fall under the “CoC” label today. It was about kicking a package off of PyPI, because its docs repeatedly used a word that Dan Akroyd used to apply to Jane Curtin (brilliant comic actors from America’s “Saturday Night Live” TV show, but back in the days when it was genuinely funny :wink:). > It won’t surprise anyone that I was one of only two who voted to leave the (seemingly dead anyway) package alone. The other has also been active in this thread, but I don’t want to name them lest they get even more death threats than usual :wink: Also, if this was the statement from Tim Peters that the python statement: > Using potentially offensive language or slurs, in one case even calling an SNL skit from the 1970s using the same slur “genuinely funny”, which shows a lack of empathy towards other community members. was referring to. Then it is a misrepresentation of what Tim said. Because Tim didn't say the skit using the slur was "genuinely funny". He said the show was "genuinely funny". However, there are a bunch of removed comments from Tim in the discussion so it could have been referring to a different message.
the_doctah 2y ago
[flagged]
ank 2y ago
Name and shame. Who is in the steering committee? What is their background and political inclinations? Fight fire with fire.
coldtea 2y ago
FOSS Codes of Conduct aside from obvious basics like "be polite" and such, is just a way for people who thrive on office-politics style backstabbing to get their way - in the process diverting a project from its technical goals. It's the corporate cancer now imposed upon FOSS. Contributing to any such project is not worth it anymore. Someone like Tim has devoted decades of his life working for Python. What modern FOSS projects need is a reverse Code of Conduct, explicitly telling the kind of people who hijack the project discussion and try to play these games to fuck off and that they're not welcome, and that the focus is the tech.
enorehtona 2y ago
[dead]

114 points by mont_tag 2y ago

Given the long list of things, as an outsider, it seems like this person was quite disruptive to the community. It doesn't seem like there's a "this one post was sus", but rather, "we've exhausted other options after repeated violations of our rules across many, many threads." This seems like basic moderation of a community, and good on the mods for applying their rules even to a core developer?

Ukv 2y ago
Reading Tim's posts gives me the exact opposite impression. As far as I can tell, his "defense of "reverse racism"" was simply: > Can’t say I’ve paid it much attention in recent years. Last time I did, “all races can be prejudiced, but only whites can be racist” was the Correct View™. [...] > While it still largely makes good sense to me, I don’t want to see the PSF insisting that any other view can only be held in “bad faith”. Other views are common too. Among people of my age, very common. I can attest from personal experience that some people near my age never even heard of the view the PSF endorses. [0] So, to my understanding, PSF's stance is that only white people can be racist. Tim's supposed offence wasn't even disagreeing with that, but saying that people who don't share that stance aren't acting in bad faith. The slur alluded to was when discussing removal of a PyPI package named "slut". Instead of using the word directly, Tim said: > It was about kicking a package off of PyPI, because its docs repeatedly used a word that Dan Akroyd used to apply to Jane Curtin (brilliant comic actors from America’s “Saturday Night Live” TV show, but back in the days when it was genuinely funny). [1] It all seems exceptionally mild to me. I'm not sure if this is an escalation of purity standards, or those in power wanted him gone for other reasons (like the mentioned questioning of PSF decisions) so twisted anything they could find to match CoC terms. [0]: https://discuss.python.org/t/im-leaving-too/58408/10 https://discuss.python.org/t/im-leaving-too/58408/10 [1]: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696/150 https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed...
- jakfhg 2y ago
  The wanted him gone because he repeatedly has pointed out double standards. That is to say, the ruling class who verbally and with empty phrases assert their morality are as undiplomatic as the dissenters they prosecute. They are even more rude and certainly more mean, because issuing official sounding invented negative character pictures is far more damaging than a single person occasionally going off on a rant. Python-dev is a now full blown dictatorship, and speaking the truth is not allowed. They are probably also afraid because Google fired the Python team that contained some members of the ruling class, so they double down.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

linotype 2y ago

> Dismissing unacceptable behavior of others as a “neurodivergent” trait, which is problematic because it creates a stereotype that neurodivergent people are hard to interact with and need special treatment. Why shouldn’t neurodivergent people get special treatment if they have a disorder/issue? Seems like accommodations should be made to promote inclusion.

hungie 2y ago
This isn't what that says. This is saying that when a neurodiverse person breaks decorum (read: is a giant asshole), the correct behavior is to let that person know they are having an impact and give them grace to grow their skills. Saying, "they are allowed to be assholes because they are neurodiverse" does nothing to help the neurodiverse person, and creates a stigma. I'm autistic. I constantly tell myself, "being autistic is not an excuse for being an asshhole. I have to work harder to not be an asshole, but I can learn it ".
- red1reaper 2y ago
  I mean, there are situations where there could be a bit wiggling room to allow a neurodiverse person to break decorum a bit. For example, if someone has tourette they could be excused a bit the same way an autistic person can be excused a bit for not noticing a subtle social cue. But there is a clear difference between allowing a bit of leeway to break decorum and allowing one to be a massive asshole. I think there is a balance, like everything in life.
  - hungie 2y ago
    [dead]
- zahlman 2y ago
  The issue is that the people in charge in the Python community are not "letting [neurodivergent people] know they are having [a negative] impact". At best they are simply shutting down opinions they don't like, regardless of who expresses them. In many cases, though, complaints about those posts are presented more like open invitations to debate, natural responses to which are then treated as further evidence of malfeasance. (The entire situation reminds me very strongly of how James Damore was treated at Google.) Certainly there is no attempt to justify that talking about whatever issue is inappropriate, and certainly there is no attempt to connect such justification to the Code of Conduct. (Please ctrl-F that Code of Conduct - https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/ https://policies.python.org/python.org/code-of-conduct/ - for any mention of "reverse sexism" or "reverse racism", for example. Or try to find the part that explains how typing "XXXX" and giving hints about what specific naughty word it stands for, in the context of relating a story about taking action to block a PyPI package given that name, is verboten.) With respect, I don't think you actually have to work harder. The onus should be on others to recognize that you genuinely aren't being an asshole just because you, e.g., said something that makes them uncomfortable or challenges their worldview. Certainly they should be expected to recognize that, if you appear to understand emoji differently from how they do, perhaps it would be kinder for them to try to figure out how you're understanding them, rather than objecting to how you use them based on that understanding. But that is not a courtesy that was extended to Mr. Peters (nor to myself), as far as I can see.

huhkerrf 2y ago

> Defending “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism”, concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment. > Overloading the discussion of the bylaws change (47 out of 177 posts in topic at the time the moderators closed the topic)... The later result of the vote showed 81% support for the most controversial of the bylaws changes, which demonstrates the controversy was blown out of proportion. These two are insane. I'm almost speechless. The rest don't sound good, and would be enough for a suspension on their own if presented truthfully. So why put those first two? Why put them first? EDIT: Since no one has linked to it yet, this seems to be the discussion referenced. I haven't gotten to the end of it yet, I admit, but what I read so far looks like one person in particular disagreeing with the prevailing opinion in a fairy respectful way: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696 https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed...

esperent 2y ago
Maybe because they are less obviously bad but they were nonetheless the biggest issues. I've found this before with problematic individuals on forums. They rarely break "obviously bad" rules because they know they'll get the ban hammer and everyone will agree they they deserved it. Instead they cause just as much havoc and disruption by doing things that don't seem that bad when they are accused of them. Eventually they cross the line and get banned anyway, but the moderators have to struggle to explain why and if it leaks into another forum you'll get a ton of people defending the problematic person and saying the mods overreacted. When in reality everyone's probably been struggling to deal with this person's disruptions for months or even years.
- huhkerrf 2y ago
  That's fair, but those two things shouldn't come into play at all. Just leave them out. Is this group saying that if you disagree with the idea that only white people can be racist that you can't be a contributor? I'm honestly trying to find a good faith explanation that's better than that.

chmod775 2y ago

This is hard to evaluate without a reference to the discussion the individual is supposed to have negatively impacted. This may be anything between shutting down someone derailing the discussion by spouting genuine nonsense, to being overreaching and paternalistic, punishing for not conforming to the preordained outcome of a farcical "discussion". There's enough of either going around nowadays.

hungie 2y ago
Seems like it was many many threads, and the mods looked at them in aggregate. Though they did call out one thread in particular, it doesn't seem like that one thread was the primary motivator here. This reads like mods, doing modding, which is always a judgement call and never black and white.

unethical_ban 2y ago

My takeaway: The suspended user seems exhausting, and the Python community has skin thinner than Intel's latest node.

saulpw 2y ago

Tim Peters, author of timsort and longtime Python contributer, is a graybeard spaz like Stallman: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696/150?page=8 https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed... I know this type, they definitely know how to belabor a point, and their language can be "colorful". I read through a bunch of comments, and on a scale from 0 to Terry Davis, Tim seems like a 1 or 2, annoying and crotchety but well-meaning and mild-mannered (Linus would be an 8 on this scale). Suspension is a drastic move, and it's hard both to suspend[0] and to be suspended, so I hope the PSF engaged with him offline first. [0] https://fosstodon.org/@Yhg1s@social.coop/112922140875432669 https://fosstodon.org/@Yhg1s@social.coop/112922140875432669

kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
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nusl 2y ago
Somehow using Terry Davis as the top-end of your scale is quite funny, but I suppose accurate.
- cowboylowrez 2y ago
  its not useful, I can't tell what a 1 or a 2 is if I don't know the value of "Terry Davis". 1 or 2 is bad if "Terry Davis" is 3 but we don't know that.
  - saulpw 2y ago
    The top of the scale is always 10.
    - cowboylowrez 2y ago
      TIL! checks multimeter
    - sgerenser 2y ago

nusl 2y ago

Seems justified. In any workplace I think you'd face a stern talking to or lose your job for this.

WCSTombs 2y ago

> Overloading the discussion of the bylaws change (47 out of 177 posts in topic at the time the moderators closed the topic), which created an atmosphere of fear, uncertainty, and doubt... > Defending “reverse racism” and “reverse sexism”, concepts not backed by empirical evidence, which could be seen as deliberate intimidation or creating an exclusionary environment. So simply having an opinion and expressing it counts as "intimidation" now? I have to point out that one aspect of an organization's culture that actually creates hostility and exclusion is punishing people for engaging in good-faith discussion. (And if the dialogue in question was not in good faith, why not put that at the top?) It's not enough for someone to engage in the process and help the team reach the best outcome. Their opinion must also be the correct one, or else. Look, I'm an outsider here, so there are obviously a lot of details I'm missing, but this doesn't look good to someone reading it without context, and I don't think it makes the PSF look good. How it reads is "hey, we're writing to let you know we're banning someone. We won't say who it is, and we won't say exactly what they did, but the two top things came down to differences of opinion." I would love to be wrong about all of this, because I especially don't like seeing it in an open-source organization that's so integral to my own work.

orf 2y ago
The thread is here: https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed-bylaws-changes-to-improve-our-membership-experience/55696 https://discuss.python.org/t/for-your-consideration-proposed... The person in question is Tim Peters. It’s weird to not name them, but not linking to the thread is appropriate.
- JonChesterfield 2y ago
  I skimmed through that looking for the context. It seems to be that Tim didn't want the governing group to have even more power to kick people out of the project, argued his point eloquently and was then kicked off the project. E.g. > Like David too, I’m not opposed to making it impossible for the Board to do this on its own - I just want a higher bar than a simple majority vote. My years on the Board matched David’s experience: votes were usually unanimous. If there’s reasonable disagreement, under most systems of juistice that favors the accused Initial impression to an outsider is that python's council is in the wrong here. Read a fair amount of that thread now and Tim seems pretty reasonable to me. Which does align with my mistrust of CoC structures I suppose.

pf_moore 2y ago

TW: Sexual abuse For anyone on the outside, this appears to be an intensely rash decision. I can rest assured that Tim Peters found trauma in the experience of being suspended as the level of appropriate communication is never met, neither in this announcement, nor in Lukaz Langa's persistent references [1] [2] to rapists when discussing conduct on an internet forum. I'm sure there are reasons to become a python core developer, but open hostility and defaulting to homogeneity have rarely been experienced as acceptance by me; they simply scale in ways easily implemented across a wide audience. De-escalation and finding middle ground without validating harmful behavior do not scale well but then again, there has never been a capitalist movement behind finding a solution which works 1: https://discuss.python.org/t/how-can-we-better-support-neurodivergent-newcomers-to-the-community/58724/5 https://discuss.python.org/t/how-can-we-better-support-neuro... 2: https://discuss.python.org/t/discussion-about-recent-coc-events/5778/35 https://discuss.python.org/t/discussion-about-recent-coc-eve...

a-french-anon 2y ago
Sorry in advance if this is "a bit" flamebait-y, but the irony is too strong for me to not point out: Working around another person’s problematic behavior and having to teach newcomers to the group to do the same is a known psychological antipattern. When talking about "neurodivergent" people having communication issues, but the now enshrined "use my pronouns or else" thing is conveniently forgotten.
- hungie 2y ago
  There's a huge gap between someone being an odious asshole whom everyone just accepts, and, "this is how I'd prefer to be addressed". Like, if a "Robert" says "I prefer Bob" and you still call them Robert, you're choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says, "I prefer they/them" and you use her, you are choosing to make them unhappy. If someone says "I will be an asshole in public and won't accept critique on that" and everyone is like "this guy's an ass but deal with it" that's a problem with the community that should be addressed.
  - 2y ago

rowanG077 2y ago

Very bad look. They ask for discussion but when someone brings them counterpoints they suspend them for three months. I read the discussion and I'm assuming it's about Tim Peters. But his responses seem normal and not at all something that even almost should warrant a ban. This is almost cartoonish level of power abuse.

bankcust08385 2y ago
There ought to be an SNL Western sketch where robbers and cowboys act and interact like FOSS software developers revolving around a theme of "Agree with my social framework and do as I say, or I kill you!"

JonChesterfield 2y ago

Codes of conduct all feature worthiness being assessed by a small group of special individuals who then declare judgement without rationale. There are competing political systems to that one. The CoC enthusiasts are (likely to be) based in democratic systems so ignorance is not their reason for choosing this structure. A couple of groups I'm involved with have gone down the mandatory code of conduct route. I do not feel safer with a mechanism for summary execution in place. Specifically if I disagree with one of the chosen, they can solve that disagreement by excommunication. Thus when one of them spews insane nonsense the project tends to take damage instead of discussing saner alternatives. Worse, the connections of friendship / nepotism can be hard to detect from outside the inner circle, so disagreeing with anyone might be game over. Thus the system rots. But at least it gave power to the few for a period of time. My primary takeaway from this particular case is that Tim seems more reasonable than the governing board so I'm less likely to use Python in future - both because squashing discussion usually leads to technical decay and because the project as a whole looks more likely to implode over time.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
Codes of Conducts are "cider house rules" that are rarely or never followed with consistency or fairness. As such, they are absolutely pointless because the social contract is already implicit. Their existence merely reinforces a form of elitism. > The name "The Cider House Rules" refers to the list of rules that migrant workers are supposed to follow at the Ocean View Orchards. However, none of them can read, and they are completely unaware of the rules – which have been posted for years. [Basically, they're a EULA.] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cider_House_Rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cider_House_Rules

mhh__ 2y ago

I haven't read the thread/s yet but this kind of thing always sets off an alarm in my head, lots of programmers are basically socially retarded in many ways, what happens if the bar for exclusion starts to drop? I also don't like the "the battle ground for the ideology of tomorrow is this programing forum!" mindset but that's slightly deeper.

subjectsigma 2y ago

I read stuff like this and think to myself that contributing to a large open source project simply isn’t worth it

bankcust08385 2y ago
Yep. I was banned from the Ruby community on Github for literally nothing misinterpretation without any chance of clarification. That's the sort of standard FOSS short-shrift, rude, humorless, victimhood-point counting, cliquey, infantile elitism that is the norm rather than the exception. Communities who let in the crybullies, dramatic lawyers, and narcissists to run things dissipate into shit. Forgiveness, tolerance, chill, and benefit-of-the-doubt are lost arts.
- gjvc 2y ago
  Communities who let in the crybullies, dramatic lawyers, and narcissists to run things dissipate into shit. Forgiveness, tolerance, chill, and benefit-of-the-doubt are lost arts. I need to print this out and frame it. same can be said for many companies.
  - bankcust08385 2y ago
    Maybe we should print these on T-shirts with a brand like RDH - ReturnDecentHumans.

mhh__ 2y ago

Perhaps it's time for an anti-racist fork of a python. Maybe the JIT could only turn on subject to a blood test.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
Sarcasm noted. Interestingly, this has been tried before[1] prior to DNA testing and apparently DNA testing doesn't provide the desired results since indigenous ancestry is apparently rarer than is socially-acceptable. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws

znpy 2y ago

I agree that preventing "ideological takeover" is a good aim. But I think most people don't see the main issue: ideological takeovers can happen both for the side you're rooting for and for the opposite sides. Both ideological far-right and ideological far-left people can attempt a takeover. It's in the best interest of everybody to try and prevent any ideological takeover.

ksjhtga 2y ago

The "council" members have chased away all reasonable people. One of the problems is that 90 core developers can vote for the council, but virtually all of them are inactive. So they never set foot on GitHub or even the discussion platforms. They have no clue what is going on and still think everything is like in the good old times. Couple this with the fact that only ragingly power hungry people apply for the council. There is a severe shortage of candidates. So, in the elections the nasty people get something like 30 out of 90 votes. Since hardly anyone of the electorate has the faintest idea of what is actually going on (see above) and relies on official spin stories of the council members, who block opposing opinions, they can do what they like. All people who oppose the inner circle are removed, defamed and silenced. This is like (hypothetically) Trump first banning a Democrat from voting and then removing him from the U.S. entirely.

BigParm 2y ago

Introducing the new PSF 1.0 license! The software herein can be used, without restriction, by all parties who believe only whites can be racist.

ponderings 2y ago

Reads like Wikipedia. One thing I learn there is that every accusation should be excessively sourced. People who don't do that aren't necessarily lying but they shouldn't be trusted.

andrew-ei-grad 2y ago

"Core team members are expected to act as role models for the community." Seriously? Who on earth could possibly say that Tim Peters isn't the embodiment of this? It’s utterly ridiculous to even question whether he’s a role model. This kind of talk is completely out of touch with reality.

andrew-ei-grad 2y ago

It often feels like we've lost the ability to truly connect with each other as human beings, replacing genuine respect and understanding with hypocrisy and superficiality. In today's society, there's a growing sense that many of our conversations and actions are driven more by a need to conform to trends than by authentic values. When we start dividing ourselves and others into categories based on race, gender, origin, or other characteristics, we lose sight of our shared humanity. Instead of recognizing each individual as a person with unique thoughts and feelings, we resort to generalizations and stereotypes, leading to further division and alienation. As a society, we need to remember that, above all, we are all human beings. We must listen to each other, understand, and accept our differences, while also recognizing that we have much more in common than what separates us. Sincerity, respect, and empathy are the qualities that help us stay connected as humans, despite our differences. Additionally, it's crucial that we approach the communication styles of elderly individuals with greater attention and tolerance. Their way of expressing themselves might differ from what we’re used to, shaped by different experiences and cultural contexts, but this doesn’t make their perspectives any less valuable. We should strive to be more understanding and patient, recognizing that everyone has something important to contribute, regardless of how they communicate. Let's reflect on how our words and actions impact others, and make an effort to be more mindful of those around us. Being human means understanding and feeling, not just following social norms or external pressures.

SuaveSteve 2y ago

How do we stop this overindulgent neuroticism in leadership? Open source really brings out a certain type of ass.

ranger_danger 2y ago
Maybe allow board membership/de-membership by popular vote of the entire community?

Tade0 2y ago

The Tim Peters? I dug into that link where SNL is mentioned and honestly the connection made there to me seems a bit of a stretch. I'm not in the Python ecosystem but I've seen this sort of drama in the Node.js community and, aside from resulting in a fork, it spurred a debate about governance of the project and an eventual change.

benmmurphy 2y ago
I thought he was just trying to allude to the word slut without actually saying it. They were talking about a package being banned because it was a wordplay on a slur and another package and I guess the name of the package was 'SLUT' and the other package was 'LUT' (pylut?). > One of the very few split decisions I recall from my Board days would fall under the “CoC” label today. It was about kicking a package off of PyPI, because its docs repeatedly used a word that Dan Akroyd used to apply to Jane Curtin (brilliant comic actors from America’s “Saturday Night Live” TV show, but back in the days when it was genuinely funny :wink:). > It won’t surprise anyone that I was one of only two who voted to leave the (seemingly dead anyway) package alone. The other has also been active in this thread, but I don’t want to name them lest they get even more death threats than usual :wink: Also, if this was the statement from Tim Peters that the python statement: > Using potentially offensive language or slurs, in one case even calling an SNL skit from the 1970s using the same slur “genuinely funny”, which shows a lack of empathy towards other community members. was referring to. Then it is a misrepresentation of what Tim said. Because Tim didn't say the skit using the slur was "genuinely funny". He said the show was "genuinely funny". However, there are a bunch of removed comments from Tim in the discussion so it could have been referring to a different message.

the_doctah 2y ago

[flagged]

ank 2y ago

Name and shame. Who is in the steering committee? What is their background and political inclinations? Fight fire with fire.

coldtea 2y ago

FOSS Codes of Conduct aside from obvious basics like "be polite" and such, is just a way for people who thrive on office-politics style backstabbing to get their way - in the process diverting a project from its technical goals. It's the corporate cancer now imposed upon FOSS. Contributing to any such project is not worth it anymore. Someone like Tim has devoted decades of his life working for Python. What modern FOSS projects need is a reverse Code of Conduct, explicitly telling the kind of people who hijack the project discussion and try to play these games to fuck off and that they're not welcome, and that the focus is the tech.

enorehtona 2y ago

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