3 ms·

> It's why the US Government is pushing so much for Rust adoption. Can you provide any references for this?

timschmidt 2y ago
He's likely referring to this: https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/press-release-technical-report/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/pre...
RockRobotRock 2y ago
https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/press-release-technical-report/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/pre... https://media.defense.gov/2022/Nov/10/2003112742/-1/-1/0/CSI_SOFTWARE_MEMORY_SAFETY.PDF https://media.defense.gov/2022/Nov/10/2003112742/-1/-1/0/CSI...
kevindamm 2y ago
They may be referring to DARPA's research project TRACTOR: https://www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust https://www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust
AlotOfReading 2y ago
There's been a number of reports released by the government that recommend adopting memory safe languages as opposed to C/C++. The White House put out a memo [0] for example, and NIST has this page [1]. Since there are no other systems languages with widespread developer mindshare, some people see these as primarily recommending Rust. [0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/memory-safety-statements-of-support/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/mem... [1] https://www.nist.gov/itl/ssd/software-quality-group/safer-languages https://www.nist.gov/itl/ssd/software-quality-group/safer-la...
- jimbob45 2y ago
  What about MISRA C and C++ with static analysis tools? Also all GC languages would pretty easily solve the problem including Java and C#.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    It's perfectly possible to write the crowdstrike issue in C/C++ code that will pass any MISRA checker, because MISRA checkers are unable to verify conformance with the standard. It basically says "don't do this" and leaves it up to the developer to ensure. Static analysis tools (broadly) are not powerful enough to ensure memory safety for nontrivial programs without a high developer burden in the form of annotations or restricted language subsets. GC languages are generally not appropriate for kernel level systems programming like crowdstrike was doing. Java has some history in this space, but generally without niceties like garbage collection that typical developers are used to.
- echelon 2y ago
  > some people see these as primarily recommending Rust. That's not the reason. The DoD really is focused on Rust [1, 2]. [1] https://www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust https://www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust [2] https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2024-07-31a https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2024-07-31a
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    The federal government is a lot bigger than even the DoD, and the other agencies (e.g. NIST as linked above) have been very careful to make sure they aren't only recommending Rust, even if it's clearly a major alternative.
notarealllama 2y ago
If you follow CISA vulns and guidelines, it's all industrial controllers getting hacked and pushing for memory safety for like a year straight. (On a side note, pleasantly surprised to see a Linux kernel android bug today)
keithalewis 2y ago
We're from the Government and we're here to help. You need a license to operate a backhoe, but not to write software.

He's likely referring to this: https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/press-release-technical-report/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/pre...

RockRobotRock 2y ago

https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/press-release-technical-report/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/pre... https://media.defense.gov/2022/Nov/10/2003112742/-1/-1/0/CSI_SOFTWARE_MEMORY_SAFETY.PDF https://media.defense.gov/2022/Nov/10/2003112742/-1/-1/0/CSI...

kevindamm 2y ago

They may be referring to DARPA's research project TRACTOR: https://www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust https://www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust

AlotOfReading 2y ago

There's been a number of reports released by the government that recommend adopting memory safe languages as opposed to C/C++. The White House put out a memo [0] for example, and NIST has this page [1]. Since there are no other systems languages with widespread developer mindshare, some people see these as primarily recommending Rust. [0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/memory-safety-statements-of-support/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/oncd/briefing-room/2024/02/26/mem... [1] https://www.nist.gov/itl/ssd/software-quality-group/safer-languages https://www.nist.gov/itl/ssd/software-quality-group/safer-la...

jimbob45 2y ago
What about MISRA C and C++ with static analysis tools? Also all GC languages would pretty easily solve the problem including Java and C#.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  It's perfectly possible to write the crowdstrike issue in C/C++ code that will pass any MISRA checker, because MISRA checkers are unable to verify conformance with the standard. It basically says "don't do this" and leaves it up to the developer to ensure. Static analysis tools (broadly) are not powerful enough to ensure memory safety for nontrivial programs without a high developer burden in the form of annotations or restricted language subsets. GC languages are generally not appropriate for kernel level systems programming like crowdstrike was doing. Java has some history in this space, but generally without niceties like garbage collection that typical developers are used to.
echelon 2y ago
> some people see these as primarily recommending Rust. That's not the reason. The DoD really is focused on Rust [1, 2]. [1] https://www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust https://www.darpa.mil/program/translating-all-c-to-rust [2] https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2024-07-31a https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2024-07-31a
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  The federal government is a lot bigger than even the DoD, and the other agencies (e.g. NIST as linked above) have been very careful to make sure they aren't only recommending Rust, even if it's clearly a major alternative.

notarealllama 2y ago

If you follow CISA vulns and guidelines, it's all industrial controllers getting hacked and pushing for memory safety for like a year straight. (On a side note, pleasantly surprised to see a Linux kernel android bug today)

keithalewis 2y ago

We're from the Government and we're here to help. You need a license to operate a backhoe, but not to write software.