3 ms·

None of those are "widely distributed". They're all things that either MS themselves or MS-oriented shops run internally. No-one's writing a database server or

by lmm 2y ago

None of those are "widely distributed". They're all things that either MS themselves or MS-oriented shops run internally. No-one's writing a database server or identity management system or source code repository or business intelligence tool or even something like a linter in cross-platform C#. Unless you're a Windows shop, it's just not a first-class ecosystem.

celdon25 2y ago
No linters in C#? That’s a good one. C# as a language has always been cross-platform. Though the last few versions have made incredible gains in performance optimizations. You won’t get the flexibility of C++ but the performance comes close to it in most cases, when written optimally. And you don’t have to deal with arcane, bullshit build systems with a learning curve that is worse than the language, and breaks down on every OS major version update (or its own version updates).
- lmm 2y ago
  > C# as a language has always been cross-platform. Not really. Like, it notionally ran on FreeBSD, but nontrivial programs never actually worked until recently, and even now they mostly still don't.
  - celdon25 2y ago
    The lack of an available runtime implementation, or the transitive dependencies of the dynamically linked reference assemblies, does not preclude the compiled assembly from being cross-platform. The assembly within the file built by a C# compiler contains IL code that can be extracted by cross-platform tooling. There’s nothing OS-specific at that layer. We are talking about the language, not the runtime implementation.
    - lmm 2y ago
      We're talking about what language people use and why. How well it runs on their platform in practice is a much more relevant factor for that than how cross-platform it is in theory.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    https://www.freshports.org/lang/dotnet https://www.freshports.org/lang/dotnet pkg install lang/dotnet Not everything works, and support is community-maintained, but “mostly doesn’t run” does not reflect actual state of affairs.
    - lmm 2y ago
      "Nontrivial programs mostly don't run" is my real experience. I was quite hopeful at first but the culture is very much to use windows libraries even when you don't really need them, and not really care about anything that isn't windows.
      - neonsunset 2y ago
        Do you have a specific scenario and a package name in mind when you say "Nontrivial programs mostly don't run"? This is the only way for this statement to be true. If it's something niche, the question is to the package maintainers, as usual, if it's actively maintained that is. As a sibling comment pointed out, .NET assemblies within Nuget packages are by-definition portable, unless they use platform intrinsics without a fallback and or without using newer crossplat APIs, but this is predominantly specific to SIMD code and a rather niche case that concerns my work. There are some Nuget packages which come packaged with native dependencies, and some of the ancient and unmaintained ones do come with like a single win-x86 .dll inside, but this is a "things you sometimes encounter with C/C++" and in general is a rare occurrence. Nowadays, the packages that have native dependencies either simply expect the host to have them installed (like you install, say, gstreamer), or come with dependent packages per-platform (and the matrix gets quite big: [x86, x64, arm64] x [linux, osx, win]). Like https://github.com/sandrohanea/whisper.net https://github.com/sandrohanea/whisper.net But then again, this has to do with a specific package and its owner, if that's what you meant. Note that there is no culture issue, there is poor framing and a strawman one. "I had issues on a niche target" is not mutually exclusive with cross-platform. Would you say lack of support for SunOS is a damning evidence of "pro-windows agenda"? (whatever it is, I use macOS and Linux hosts mainly and surprisingly and funnily enough, there is work to support SunOS as well) The thinly veiled "but linux/unix!" low effort replies are unfortunate and tiresome. They don't strike me as a productive attitude that seeks to make things work.
giancarlostoro 2y ago
You really should google before you make remarks... I'm also going to ignore the widely distributed remark because it is ridiculous. > No-one's writing a database server RavenDB, which can be run in a cluster, and uses less CPU (and I've read memory) than MongoDB itself. There's also a recent C# based redis drop-in replacement that outperforms redis. See more: https://github.com/quozd/awesome-dotnet?tab=readme-ov-file#database https://github.com/quozd/awesome-dotnet?tab=readme-ov-file#d... As for identity, you sound really silly when you consider it is literally built-in to ASP .NET itself, and can be expanded upon to your hearts desire, plus there's no shortage of available identity management libraries in C#. As for source code repository, I'm not sure what you mean, but for years Microsoft hosted CodePlex which was essentially GitHub for C# projects. Visual Studio and C# projects are typically hosted on Git, I would be shocked if there's no web UI for git in C#, there's definitely plenty of applications for git in .NET I'm not even going to comment on business intelligence, now you're just being very lazy. You're telling me Microsoft has 0 BI tooling and SDKs? Come on. As for a linter, you are either trolling, or just blindly hate Microsoft for no rhyme or reason, there's more than enough linters, especially the best one of all, ReSharper, which is integrated into Rider which is a cross-platform IDE. There's also MonoDevelop, SharpDevelop, etc I literally spent a few weeks ago porting a .NET 3.5 app I hadn't touched in years, to .NET 8 from Ubuntu Linux, and got it running, in under 30 minutes in Project Rider. Also nearly forgot. Netflix's original web UI was Silverlight, which is C# / .NET back when it was at its peak for its time.
- lmm 2y ago
  > RavenDB Ok, that actually sounds interesting. Still haven't heard of anyone using it, and closed-source makes it a non-starter, but I'm vaguely interested. Even then though, sounds like their client libraries are only .NET? > As for identity, you sound really silly when you consider it is literally built-in to ASP .NET itself, and can be expanded upon to your hearts desire, plus there's no shortage of available identity management libraries in C#. Sure there is plenty of support for it within the platform. My point is no-one's writing their organisational SSO system in C#, unless they're already bought into the Windows stack. > As for source code repository, I'm not sure what you mean, but for years Microsoft hosted CodePlex which was essentially GitHub for C# projects. I mean the equivalent of Bitbucket Server or GitLab, the thing you'd run to host your own source repos internally. > I'm not even going to comment on business intelligence, now you're just being very lazy. You're telling me Microsoft has 0 BI tooling and SDKs? No, I'm saying that what they have is all locked into the MS/Windows parallel world stack. There's nothing that a company that isn't committed to them would use. > As for a linter, you are either trolling, or just blindly hate Microsoft for no rhyme or reason, there's more than enough linters, especially the best one of all, ReSharper, which is integrated into Rider which is a cross-platform IDE. There's also MonoDevelop, SharpDevelop, etc There are plenty of linters for C#, sure. But no-one would write a general linter in it. It was an example that came to mind because that was how Facebook first started adopting OCaml - a linter is a small standalone tool, so it's an ok place to experiment with a new technology stack. > Netflix's original web UI was Silverlight, which is C# / .NET back when it was at its peak for its time. And look how that worked out for them.

by lmm 2y ago

celdon25 2y ago

No linters in C#? That’s a good one. C# as a language has always been cross-platform. Though the last few versions have made incredible gains in performance optimizations. You won’t get the flexibility of C++ but the performance comes close to it in most cases, when written optimally. And you don’t have to deal with arcane, bullshit build systems with a learning curve that is worse than the language, and breaks down on every OS major version update (or its own version updates).

lmm 2y ago
> C# as a language has always been cross-platform. Not really. Like, it notionally ran on FreeBSD, but nontrivial programs never actually worked until recently, and even now they mostly still don't.
- celdon25 2y ago
  The lack of an available runtime implementation, or the transitive dependencies of the dynamically linked reference assemblies, does not preclude the compiled assembly from being cross-platform. The assembly within the file built by a C# compiler contains IL code that can be extracted by cross-platform tooling. There’s nothing OS-specific at that layer. We are talking about the language, not the runtime implementation.
  - lmm 2y ago
    We're talking about what language people use and why. How well it runs on their platform in practice is a much more relevant factor for that than how cross-platform it is in theory.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  https://www.freshports.org/lang/dotnet https://www.freshports.org/lang/dotnet pkg install lang/dotnet Not everything works, and support is community-maintained, but “mostly doesn’t run” does not reflect actual state of affairs.
  - lmm 2y ago
    "Nontrivial programs mostly don't run" is my real experience. I was quite hopeful at first but the culture is very much to use windows libraries even when you don't really need them, and not really care about anything that isn't windows.
    - neonsunset 2y ago
      Do you have a specific scenario and a package name in mind when you say "Nontrivial programs mostly don't run"? This is the only way for this statement to be true. If it's something niche, the question is to the package maintainers, as usual, if it's actively maintained that is. As a sibling comment pointed out, .NET assemblies within Nuget packages are by-definition portable, unless they use platform intrinsics without a fallback and or without using newer crossplat APIs, but this is predominantly specific to SIMD code and a rather niche case that concerns my work. There are some Nuget packages which come packaged with native dependencies, and some of the ancient and unmaintained ones do come with like a single win-x86 .dll inside, but this is a "things you sometimes encounter with C/C++" and in general is a rare occurrence. Nowadays, the packages that have native dependencies either simply expect the host to have them installed (like you install, say, gstreamer), or come with dependent packages per-platform (and the matrix gets quite big: [x86, x64, arm64] x [linux, osx, win]). Like https://github.com/sandrohanea/whisper.net https://github.com/sandrohanea/whisper.net But then again, this has to do with a specific package and its owner, if that's what you meant. Note that there is no culture issue, there is poor framing and a strawman one. "I had issues on a niche target" is not mutually exclusive with cross-platform. Would you say lack of support for SunOS is a damning evidence of "pro-windows agenda"? (whatever it is, I use macOS and Linux hosts mainly and surprisingly and funnily enough, there is work to support SunOS as well) The thinly veiled "but linux/unix!" low effort replies are unfortunate and tiresome. They don't strike me as a productive attitude that seeks to make things work.

giancarlostoro 2y ago

You really should google before you make remarks... I'm also going to ignore the widely distributed remark because it is ridiculous. > No-one's writing a database server RavenDB, which can be run in a cluster, and uses less CPU (and I've read memory) than MongoDB itself. There's also a recent C# based redis drop-in replacement that outperforms redis. See more: https://github.com/quozd/awesome-dotnet?tab=readme-ov-file#database https://github.com/quozd/awesome-dotnet?tab=readme-ov-file#d... As for identity, you sound really silly when you consider it is literally built-in to ASP .NET itself, and can be expanded upon to your hearts desire, plus there's no shortage of available identity management libraries in C#. As for source code repository, I'm not sure what you mean, but for years Microsoft hosted CodePlex which was essentially GitHub for C# projects. Visual Studio and C# projects are typically hosted on Git, I would be shocked if there's no web UI for git in C#, there's definitely plenty of applications for git in .NET I'm not even going to comment on business intelligence, now you're just being very lazy. You're telling me Microsoft has 0 BI tooling and SDKs? Come on. As for a linter, you are either trolling, or just blindly hate Microsoft for no rhyme or reason, there's more than enough linters, especially the best one of all, ReSharper, which is integrated into Rider which is a cross-platform IDE. There's also MonoDevelop, SharpDevelop, etc I literally spent a few weeks ago porting a .NET 3.5 app I hadn't touched in years, to .NET 8 from Ubuntu Linux, and got it running, in under 30 minutes in Project Rider. Also nearly forgot. Netflix's original web UI was Silverlight, which is C# / .NET back when it was at its peak for its time.

lmm 2y ago
> RavenDB Ok, that actually sounds interesting. Still haven't heard of anyone using it, and closed-source makes it a non-starter, but I'm vaguely interested. Even then though, sounds like their client libraries are only .NET? > As for identity, you sound really silly when you consider it is literally built-in to ASP .NET itself, and can be expanded upon to your hearts desire, plus there's no shortage of available identity management libraries in C#. Sure there is plenty of support for it within the platform. My point is no-one's writing their organisational SSO system in C#, unless they're already bought into the Windows stack. > As for source code repository, I'm not sure what you mean, but for years Microsoft hosted CodePlex which was essentially GitHub for C# projects. I mean the equivalent of Bitbucket Server or GitLab, the thing you'd run to host your own source repos internally. > I'm not even going to comment on business intelligence, now you're just being very lazy. You're telling me Microsoft has 0 BI tooling and SDKs? No, I'm saying that what they have is all locked into the MS/Windows parallel world stack. There's nothing that a company that isn't committed to them would use. > As for a linter, you are either trolling, or just blindly hate Microsoft for no rhyme or reason, there's more than enough linters, especially the best one of all, ReSharper, which is integrated into Rider which is a cross-platform IDE. There's also MonoDevelop, SharpDevelop, etc There are plenty of linters for C#, sure. But no-one would write a general linter in it. It was an example that came to mind because that was how Facebook first started adopting OCaml - a linter is a small standalone tool, so it's an ok place to experiment with a new technology stack. > Netflix's original web UI was Silverlight, which is C# / .NET back when it was at its peak for its time. And look how that worked out for them.