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I think every hobby that involves equipment has some version of this. I feel like we've been conditioned to believe that consumption of a product is equivalent

I think every hobby that involves equipment has some version of this. I feel like we've been conditioned to believe that consumption of a product is equivalent to participation in that hobby, mostly because the biggest "reward" we get from it is often the appearance of having varied interests and appearing to the layman like you know what you're doing because you have the "nice" stuff. Broad strokes, if you don't enjoy doing something with shitty gear you probably won't enjoy it with nice gear, either. And if you do enjoy it with shitty gear, you should spend enough time with said shitty gear to understand why you would need something nicer and be thoughtful about your upgrades.

qup 2y ago
I have a lot of hobbies, and I would say several of them are not fun with shitty gear. Sometimes quality gear makes the entry process far, far less painful.
- SonOfLilit 2y ago
  One exception is rock climbing. I've been pressuring everyone around me to get off of rental shoes already, it makes the experience so much less painful and more pleasant...
  - Filligree 2y ago
    Rock-climbing with shitty gear sounds less like a matter of enjoyment, and more like one of survival.
    - ip26 2y ago
      The difference between nice and average gear in rock climbing is pretty slim. A few grams, smooth action on the moving parts... it's also primarily a failsafe, so it's inherently obvious that it won't help you climb dramatically better, any more than a nicer parachute will help you fly a plane better. There's also a long tradition of the strongest climbers you know climbing on mank (i.e. safety gear so ragged it is terrifying to behold)
      - tomxor 2y ago
        > There's also a long tradition of the strongest climbers you know climbing on mank (i.e. safety gear so ragged it is terrifying to behold) It's not uncommon for trad climbers, or maybe it was. When I was younger I couldn't afford much, and I climbed with others in basically the same situation. My rack consisted of mostly passive protection, some nuts, some rocks (not literal rocks, i'm not that old). I eventually got a few micros and cheap cams (literally 3).. Some of the climbing I did back then was terrifying, not only because I was so new to it, and climbing relatively hard dangerous routes, but because they were made so much harder by having limited active protection, and a limited range of passive gear. I got very very good at creative nut placement, threading the gnarliest of threads, and was very sparing with cams, trying to save them for only where it was completely impossible to place passive gear. I also got good at hanging on in uncomfortable positions for stupid amounts of time while trying to engineer a safe piece of protection out of very little. In more recent years I added a couple totems (which are amazing, and amazingly expensive), and then got gifted a rack of cams the likes of which i've never seen. A lot of my trad climbs are feeling a hell of a lot easier now I can just chuck tons of cams with far less sparingly especially big crack climbs... It makes me wish I bought better gear earlier, maybe I would have been able to try a wider range of routes, but I'm also grateful for my hard earned skill of making the absolute best of poorly protected routes with passives, my opinion "well protected" is often very different from other peoples provided it's not literally blank run-out. And what others consider "unprotectable" I can often find perfectly safe protection on. A very decent trad rack can be had for under £1000, and last a long time - In the scheme of things that's not a lot compared to most activities. I don't know why I'm still so frugal about it, I can afford it now. I feel like ropes are the most expensive part of climbing because you can go through them so quickly and have to buy new ones pretty much every year.
      - Filligree 2y ago
        Between nice and average, I can believe. That isn't the phrasing that was used. ;-)
    - SonOfLilit 2y ago
      Nobody climbs actual rocks with rental shoes. There'd be nobody to rent them to you. Rental shoes are for gym climbing, which is quite a safe activity if you're not stupid or crazy.
- michaelt 2y ago
  My rule is that I start off with lower-mid-range equipment, until I know whether I actually like a hobby. If you love cycling and you do it all the time? By all means spend $3000 on a high-end, premium-brand, ultra-light-weight bike, if you've got the disposable income and buying it would bring you joy. But if you're just considering getting into cycling? There are perfectly good $500 bikes out there, and you don't need to delay getting into a sport just because you don't have $3k to spare right now.
  - tayo42 2y ago
    Are there really $500 bikes? New? What brand? I thought entry level was like 1k
    - michaelt 2y ago
      There are in my country, sure. Brands like Pinnacle and Trek. You're not going to be impressing anyone with an aluminium frame and Shimano's cheapest derailleur of course - but you also won't be scared to leave your bike chained up while you drop into a store. And you might want to pick up lights, a lock, a helmet, and maybe mudguards, so you'll end up spending a bit more. And of course if you don't have the tools, time or inclination to do your own maintenance bike shops can get expensive.
SonOfLilit 2y ago
I don't tend to care about appearances and still suffer from GAS. I think it's about telling myself a story that it's not that I'm lazy, the reason I'm not producing amazing music is that my setup isn't perfect yet. Dreaming about gear is always easier than practicing. After seeing how my team at my first job all participated in the hobby of camera-purchasing, in every new hobby I take up I buy the cheapest gear possible, wait a while to see whether I'm actually using it, then allow myself to get the good stuff. Not because I care about the money, because I care about building the habit of doing the actual hobby, not the habit of shopping.
ip26 2y ago
The only joy I have found in riding an extremely shitty bicycle is cackling with disbelief at how unbelievably shitty it is. Your maxim is probably more broadly applicable if you specify "serviceable gear".
MaxikCZ 2y ago
Completely disagree. Just because shitty gear exists doesnt mean theres some virtue in breaking your neck with it. Quality is always better. Few examples: 3D printing. Reading up about all the possible printers, decided on P1P. Cant imagine dealing (and enjoying dealing) with all the problems of cheaper printers, I enjoy knowing that whatever I want printed will get printed correctly first try. Snowkiting: Cant imagine enjoying being thrown around by cheap kites, while watching people being smoothly and controlably pulled by more expensive ones. PC Gaming: Cant imagine enjoying playing at 30fps at FullHD when I know how 144Hz 4K gaming looks and feels like. And the list goes on and on and on. Sure, there are people who enjoy tinkering, and the process of "reaching for the top with gear that shouldnt get them there at all", but having quality gear straight from the beggining allows a broader set of people to enjoy a hobby they would otherwise be left out of.
floren 2y ago
I agree with your first point, which is that by all appearances the acquisition of the product is the entirety of the hobby -- look at any subreddit for musicians or ham radio operators or whatever, it's all photos of some newly-purchased toy with titles like "I couldn't resist!". I think this is in part because it's a lot more effort (and risk of criticism) to post a video of yourself e.g. playing that guitar... and in part because of the feedback loop that makes us think buying shit = participating. On the second point there is some basic level of quality which is just unpleasant to go below. Sure, maybe a $500 ukulele isn't that much better than a $100 one, but that doesn't mean you should try to learn on a $10 plastic ukulele from Aliexpress.

qup 2y ago

I have a lot of hobbies, and I would say several of them are not fun with shitty gear. Sometimes quality gear makes the entry process far, far less painful.

SonOfLilit 2y ago
One exception is rock climbing. I've been pressuring everyone around me to get off of rental shoes already, it makes the experience so much less painful and more pleasant...
- Filligree 2y ago
  Rock-climbing with shitty gear sounds less like a matter of enjoyment, and more like one of survival.
  - ip26 2y ago
    The difference between nice and average gear in rock climbing is pretty slim. A few grams, smooth action on the moving parts... it's also primarily a failsafe, so it's inherently obvious that it won't help you climb dramatically better, any more than a nicer parachute will help you fly a plane better. There's also a long tradition of the strongest climbers you know climbing on mank (i.e. safety gear so ragged it is terrifying to behold)
    - tomxor 2y ago
      > There's also a long tradition of the strongest climbers you know climbing on mank (i.e. safety gear so ragged it is terrifying to behold) It's not uncommon for trad climbers, or maybe it was. When I was younger I couldn't afford much, and I climbed with others in basically the same situation. My rack consisted of mostly passive protection, some nuts, some rocks (not literal rocks, i'm not that old). I eventually got a few micros and cheap cams (literally 3).. Some of the climbing I did back then was terrifying, not only because I was so new to it, and climbing relatively hard dangerous routes, but because they were made so much harder by having limited active protection, and a limited range of passive gear. I got very very good at creative nut placement, threading the gnarliest of threads, and was very sparing with cams, trying to save them for only where it was completely impossible to place passive gear. I also got good at hanging on in uncomfortable positions for stupid amounts of time while trying to engineer a safe piece of protection out of very little. In more recent years I added a couple totems (which are amazing, and amazingly expensive), and then got gifted a rack of cams the likes of which i've never seen. A lot of my trad climbs are feeling a hell of a lot easier now I can just chuck tons of cams with far less sparingly especially big crack climbs... It makes me wish I bought better gear earlier, maybe I would have been able to try a wider range of routes, but I'm also grateful for my hard earned skill of making the absolute best of poorly protected routes with passives, my opinion "well protected" is often very different from other peoples provided it's not literally blank run-out. And what others consider "unprotectable" I can often find perfectly safe protection on. A very decent trad rack can be had for under £1000, and last a long time - In the scheme of things that's not a lot compared to most activities. I don't know why I'm still so frugal about it, I can afford it now. I feel like ropes are the most expensive part of climbing because you can go through them so quickly and have to buy new ones pretty much every year.
    - Filligree 2y ago
      Between nice and average, I can believe. That isn't the phrasing that was used. ;-)
  - SonOfLilit 2y ago
    Nobody climbs actual rocks with rental shoes. There'd be nobody to rent them to you. Rental shoes are for gym climbing, which is quite a safe activity if you're not stupid or crazy.
michaelt 2y ago
My rule is that I start off with lower-mid-range equipment, until I know whether I actually like a hobby. If you love cycling and you do it all the time? By all means spend $3000 on a high-end, premium-brand, ultra-light-weight bike, if you've got the disposable income and buying it would bring you joy. But if you're just considering getting into cycling? There are perfectly good $500 bikes out there, and you don't need to delay getting into a sport just because you don't have $3k to spare right now.
- tayo42 2y ago
  Are there really $500 bikes? New? What brand? I thought entry level was like 1k
  - michaelt 2y ago
    There are in my country, sure. Brands like Pinnacle and Trek. You're not going to be impressing anyone with an aluminium frame and Shimano's cheapest derailleur of course - but you also won't be scared to leave your bike chained up while you drop into a store. And you might want to pick up lights, a lock, a helmet, and maybe mudguards, so you'll end up spending a bit more. And of course if you don't have the tools, time or inclination to do your own maintenance bike shops can get expensive.

SonOfLilit 2y ago

I don't tend to care about appearances and still suffer from GAS. I think it's about telling myself a story that it's not that I'm lazy, the reason I'm not producing amazing music is that my setup isn't perfect yet. Dreaming about gear is always easier than practicing. After seeing how my team at my first job all participated in the hobby of camera-purchasing, in every new hobby I take up I buy the cheapest gear possible, wait a while to see whether I'm actually using it, then allow myself to get the good stuff. Not because I care about the money, because I care about building the habit of doing the actual hobby, not the habit of shopping.

ip26 2y ago

The only joy I have found in riding an extremely shitty bicycle is cackling with disbelief at how unbelievably shitty it is. Your maxim is probably more broadly applicable if you specify "serviceable gear".

MaxikCZ 2y ago

Completely disagree. Just because shitty gear exists doesnt mean theres some virtue in breaking your neck with it. Quality is always better. Few examples: 3D printing. Reading up about all the possible printers, decided on P1P. Cant imagine dealing (and enjoying dealing) with all the problems of cheaper printers, I enjoy knowing that whatever I want printed will get printed correctly first try. Snowkiting: Cant imagine enjoying being thrown around by cheap kites, while watching people being smoothly and controlably pulled by more expensive ones. PC Gaming: Cant imagine enjoying playing at 30fps at FullHD when I know how 144Hz 4K gaming looks and feels like. And the list goes on and on and on. Sure, there are people who enjoy tinkering, and the process of "reaching for the top with gear that shouldnt get them there at all", but having quality gear straight from the beggining allows a broader set of people to enjoy a hobby they would otherwise be left out of.

floren 2y ago

I agree with your first point, which is that by all appearances the acquisition of the product is the entirety of the hobby -- look at any subreddit for musicians or ham radio operators or whatever, it's all photos of some newly-purchased toy with titles like "I couldn't resist!". I think this is in part because it's a lot more effort (and risk of criticism) to post a video of yourself e.g. playing that guitar... and in part because of the feedback loop that makes us think buying shit = participating. On the second point there is some basic level of quality which is just unpleasant to go below. Sure, maybe a $500 ukulele isn't that much better than a $100 one, but that doesn't mean you should try to learn on a $10 plastic ukulele from Aliexpress.