6 ms·

Cats appear to grieve death of fellow pets – even dogs, study finds

118 points by hackernj 2y ago

InsideOutSanta 2y ago
I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," but they clearly do enjoy the company of people and other animals they like, and react to them no longer being around. The first time I went on a two-week holiday after getting my cat, when I got back, she became super anxious about me leaving. Whenever I left, she would wait near door and meow loudly until I came back. It took a while for her to start to trust that I wouldn't just disappear again when I left. Edit 1: I have no idea idea why people are voting this down. I'd love for somebody to explain to me what about my comment is causing them to do that. Edit 2: I guess the word "grieve" is ambiguous, but I understand it in this context to mean "being upset at somebody else's death." Of course cats are upset if somebody they like isn't around, that's what I'm describing happened with my cat. I just doubt it's because they know that somebody died. Edit 3: I think I might have been wrong, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41182137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41182137 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41182236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41182236
- shepardrtc 2y ago
  > I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," Cats are very loving animals that can bond deeply to others. They just show it in different ways. Of course they can grieve.
  - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
    > Cats are very loving animals that can bond deeply to others That's... that's what I said? That's why I put "grieve" in quotes, because in the article, they used it specifically as a reaction to death. But death is probably not a concept a cat understands. They understand concepts like "absence" and "missing," but I doubt they know that things die.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      > I doubt they know that things die. Killing is what a cat does, left to its own devices.
      - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
        That doesn't mean they understand the concept of death. Animals don't even need to have a brain to kill other animals.
        triceratops 2y ago
        > understand the concept of death You have to define what this means, because I honestly have no idea what you mean. Animals understand alive vs not alive perfectly well.
    - simion314 2y ago
      >But death is probably not a concept a cat understands. They understand concepts like "absence" and "missing," but I doubt they know that things die. Why are you so confident that cats can understand some concepts but not death, as a predator they kill animals, so do youy think that in their mind they think that after they kill an animal that animal is just sleeping and should wake up soon? I am wondering what a cat that acknowledges a friend died or "is sleeping the long one" is thinking if they dream about them, is that confusing for them, dead cats comming to you in a dream.
      - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
        "as a predator they kill animals, so do youy think that in their mind they think that after they kill an animal that animal is just sleeping and should wake up soon?" This is a very human approach to describing how a cat perceives the world. A lot of animals kill other animals. Some of these animals don't even have brains. I don't think "killing" is a necessary or sufficient precondition for understanding death. "is thinking if they dream about them, is that confusing for them" I think this is an interesting question in general. Cats seem to understand the difference between dreams and reality. When my cat seems to have a nightmare and I wake her up, she calms down immediately, so she must have some understanding that her dream was not real.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  I think it is an evolutionary benefit for a social creature to understand a difference between "not currently here" and "not functioning anymore" (i.e. "died"). This is the "why". The "how", apparently is by feelings or emotions or whatever you want to call it.
- triceratops 2y ago
  > I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," Why wouldn't they understand it? Death is a natural process. They may not be aware of their own mortality. But they can tell if another animal has died. And that if it has died it isn't coming back. It's common advice to let dogs see and smell the bodies of their deceased companions, so they know they aren't coming back. You've already said they react in a particular way when people or other animals they care about aren't around anymore. That's grieving. > I have no idea idea why people are voting this down Because you're stating something incorrect, confidently.
  - _a_a_a_ 2y ago
    That's unfair. "I very much doubt…" Is a statement of his opinion and not fact.
  - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
    >Because you're stating something incorrect, confidently. I've read about this, though, and the scientific consensus seems to be that cats do not, in fact, understand the concept of death, because they tend to wait for deceased owners to return. The same applies to dogs. They understand the concept of absence, obviously, and they find it upsetting, but I think calling it "grief" is misleading, because it implies that they know that the person they miss is actually dead.
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      But have these cats inspected the corpse of the deceased owner? Also, it's pretty common for humans to expect their loved ones to return, at least for a while until the reality sets in. Certain situations (like returning from a trip or visiting a place where they used to be) can trigger it long after acceptance.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      You're saying if they see and smell the dead body of a person or animal they knew, they don't know it's permanent?
- _a_a_a_ 2y ago
  Not a down voter but > I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," My guess is someone disagrees with both of these claims. To be fair, your doubting that they can grieve is a bit ambiguous – of course they can grieve but whether they can grieve over a death, assumes they understand death as distinct from 'where have they gone?'.
  - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
    I guess the word "grieve" is ambiguous, but I understand it in this context in the sense of "being upset at somebody else's death." Of course cats are upset if somebody they like isn't around, but it's not because they know that this person is dead.
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=41182137&goto=item%3Fid%3D41181610%2341182137 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=41182137&goto=item%3Fi...
      - _a_a_a_ 2y ago
        Oh, ok, thanks. Interesting.
- consf 2y ago
  While the concept of "grieving" in animals, particularly cats, might be different from human grieving, it’s clear that they do experience significant emotional responses to changes in their social environment
  - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
    Yes, that's what I'm describing happened with my cat. I never denied that, I provided relatively objective evidence that this is true, because the article suggests that people might overstate how their cats react to absence, which I do not believe to be true.
    - consf 2y ago
      [dead]
- tsunamifury 2y ago
  I’ve noticed pet owners get angry when you point out the mid-anthropomorphic ideas they have about their animals. I assume they take it as disrespect that their pet is an animal that is different than them. Rather than accepting they are simply another form of life with whole different motivations and concepts.
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    It's not that. Cats and dogs are very different to us, but when you live with them, you might learn how nuanced and complex they can be.
    - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
      But that's what I'm pointing out in my original comment... Cats definitely experience love, they notice the absence of people or animals they love, and they react to it. All I'm saying is that I don't think the word "grief" is the correct word in this context, because grief implies an understanding of the concept of death, which is a very human idea that we had to learn. We weren't born with this understanding, learning about death is something very upsetting that children have to go through.
      - actionfromafar 2y ago
        I'm not saying other social animals have some kind of abstract understanding to death, but that they very, most, extremely, likely have an innate response to seeing dead members of their "pack" or other social structure. And if so, it would be very strange if humans did not have it too. You may believe it is not so, but maybe you now understand my position?
      - Jtsummers 2y ago
        > Grief is the anguish experienced after significant loss, usually the death of a beloved person. Grief often includes physiological distress, separation anxiety, confusion, yearning, obsessive dwelling on the past, and apprehension about the future. -- https://www.apa.org/topics/grief https://www.apa.org/topics/grief That seems to describe the behavior people have seen cats display after the loss of someone or another animal in their homes. Maybe they don't know it's death, but they know it's a loss and exhibit signs of distress, anxiety, and confusion. We can't really ask them to find out if they're dwelling on the past or apprehensive about the future though.
- poszlem 2y ago
  It's pretty gross to see a perfectly fine post get downvoted. I bet it's just people having a knee-jerk reaction to something they don't agree with, or maybe some weird psychological thing. I see this stuff all the time, and it bugs me that people here can't seem to keep their emotions in check. Instead, they hit that downvote button like it's a "La la la, I can't hear you!" switch.
- yungporko 2y ago
  i dont know to what degree they do or don't understand death, but i definitely wouldn't be surprised to learn that they do. rats certainly do, and i can't imagine it's a huge leap between them. actually now that i think about it, having owned plenty of both as pets, cats are definitely a lot dumber than rats so now i'm definitely not sure.
- colechristensen 2y ago
  >I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," You're putting a lot of weight with the philosophical definitions of grieve and death for a cat. Yeah, it's probably not the same understanding as a human, as a social animal it's probably not the no understanding at all either. The article is like "cats react to death like they understand what it is" and you're ambiguously insinuating that they don't without defining your terms or actually adding any substance. "Cats might understand death but not the same way I do" is both obvious and probable and not particularly interesting.
donatj 2y ago
Oh, I would absolutely believe it. We were alerted our one cat had died suddenly in the bathtub to the sound of our other cat howling outside the bathroom door. The surviving cat then acted really strange for the next week or so.
- g96alqdm0x 2y ago
  this reads a little bit like your cat drowned, is that the case?
  - Jtsummers 2y ago
    Probably not drowned. Cats, when sick, tend to find isolated places, probably cooler, where they will lay down. Tubs seem to be a common place for cats to go to near the end.
  - donatj 2y ago
    Nope, not drowned. He had just died laying in our bathtub. It was a place he liked to lay normally.
rezaprima 2y ago
My child told me that when a cat of our neighbour died, she saw the other cat silently shed tears
mberning 2y ago
They grieve so much that have been known to consume the deceased.
- shagie 2y ago
  https://www.science.org/content/article/yes-your-pet-might-eat-your-corpse-s-problem-investigators https://www.science.org/content/article/yes-your-pet-might-e... > Previous studies have revealed some differences between canine and feline scavenging. Dogs tend to eat the face and throats of humans, then break the ribs and chew on bones. Cats, on the other hand, often strip skin from the nose, upper lip, and fingers (the same places, Rando notes, that they nip at when playing with a living owner). Scavenging is more common with dogs than cats, Byard adds, “but I don’t trust either of them.”
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  Why are folks downvoting the truth? This is common behavior in cats/dogs and NOT common in humans at all outside of extreme famine, even then it's rare.
FriedrichN 2y ago
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has paid attention to their cats' behaviour when another pet dies. I remember when one of our four cats didn't come home, there were definitely changes in how the remaining three behaved. Apparently the cat got hit by a car and was found by someone and dumped in one of those bins where they dump dead animals for rendering. We took her home and laid her on the lawn so the other cats could know that she was dead. Each of the cats came one by one, giving it a sniff and concluding that she was dead. One of them however stayed with her until we took her away to bury her, an incredibly endearing display. It took a while before they all started acting like they did before. And with the subsequent deaths of all the remaining cats, as they are all sadly deceased, I saw similar things happen. We should not anthropomorphise animals, but that doesn't mean they don't have complex feelings or thoughts. If we find that even bees can "play", it's not that weird if cats can "grieve".
- throwaway5752 2y ago
  It isn't just cats. Elephants mourn as do whales and dophins, dogs, cows, pigs, parrots and other birds, and apes (including humans) among others. If one has any sort of biology background the silliness of these types of studies is clear. Humans are simply animals, there is nothing distinct about us aside from being further out on the distribution of cognitive ability. It would be news if an advanced member of animalia didn't experience grief from the death of another. If an animal can enjoy the presence of another animal (as they clearly can) it should be assumed they can mourn their loss.
brainless 2y ago
As a child, I used to spend a lot of time with insects. I wanted to understand how they understand the world. I have thought about death and how other animals may perceive it. In the recent years, with a lot of machine comprehension, I find myself asking these questions again. And I spend a lot more time with animals now, so that aids in the process. In a way a deeper question I have is do we humans actually "understand" death in similar ways? I personally do not think so and it arises from how much or little I have seen people spend time pondering on these topics. With some, I can discuss hypotheticals easily and with others I just can not. They do not admire these subjects and I wonder if our brains just perceive some of these things differently. Time is another such topic. I should add that we do not need to agree on what is "death" in order to grieve the missing. But I guess how would cats know death vs missing (vacation)?
astura 2y ago
I had two cats who lived together for 11 years, but they only barely tolerated each other, they didn't fight but they also didn't spend time together, play together, sleep together, or groom each other. So when one died I was shocked that the other paced around yowling for days. I don't know if he missed her specifically or was just confused about where she was and his confusion is what was causing distress.
MentatOnMelange 2y ago
Growing up, my family had 2 cats, both adopted at the same time as kittens. They slept curled up with each other and played together constantly. One of them died suddenly years later. As painful as that was, it was even more heartbreaking to see our other cat dealing with his death. She did not understand why he had disappeared, and grew increasingly upset in the days following. Searching everywhere around the house making distressed meows at all hours. Demanding to have every door opened so she could search every inch of the house multiple times. After a week, she began to understand our other cat was not coming back. For at least a month, her appetite disappeared, she was grooming herself compulsively and needed to be near one of us 24/7. This is only one anecdote… but to me the fact animals can grieve is beyond question
- not2b 2y ago
  We had a very similar experience when one of our two cats who had been together for many years died. The survivor was miserable to the point that we were worried about her. After a few months we adopted a kitten, and after a period of adjustment (lots of hissing at first), the old cat bonded with the new cat and seemed much happier.
  - shepherdjerred 2y ago
    I have a similar experience. My cats were brothers and one disappeared (I allowed them to be indoors/outdoors). The remaining cat meowed constantly; it was incredibly sad. I got a kitten a couple of months later and they bonded quickly. In my experience cats are always happier when they have a friend, which isn't surprising.
    - not2b 2y ago
      Two cats is the right number of cats to have, at least for us. Two are much happier than one, and more than two is hard to deal with.
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  Yeah, the title of this post is so odd. "Even dogs?" Of course dogs are included. Dogs and cats are often inseparable companions.
dugite-code 2y ago
I still remember after my first dog died the cat would check his kennel and favorite spots for weeks while sadly meowing. It was heartbreaking to watch, especially because she was a very quiet cat and rarely meowed at all.
- consf 2y ago
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selykg 2y ago
I had to say goodbye to one of my cats on Monday. I found out she had cancer on Thursday after she collapsed. Did enough to keep her around and not in too much pain over the weekend but Monday was the day. I cried my eyes out before taking her to the vet for the last time and she came up to me and licked my face and nibbled. She was an extremely affectionate cat. I brought her back home so the other two could see/sniff her because I didn't want them to not understand that she just disappeared. One of them is definitely more concerned than the other. Cats are pretty amazing creatures and while not all of them are super affectionate (my other two aren't) they seem to understand a lot more than we give them credit for. Mine always know and understand when I'm not feeling well and show it in their own ways. I will miss the hugs and cuddles from the one I said goodbye to... I needed those hugs and cuddles this week but the one that would give them wasn't with me anymore. Tough times. I would encourage anyone to take the time with their animals and give them attention and love. You never know when a surprise may come and you have very little time to say goodbye.
- nextaccountic 2y ago
  > I brought her back home so the other two could see/sniff her because I didn't want them to not understand that she just disappeared. One of them is definitely more concerned than the other. I also had a cat funeral when a cat died. I like to think that seeing and sniffing the dead body gave the other cats closure
  - selykg 2y ago
    I've heard it's really important for bonded pairs. None of mine are bonded like that, but I still wanted to make sure I did the right thing and not make things worse than they already were. I'd highly recommend others do it if possible just to be a little proactive in sparing our little furry critters some possible pain and suffering.
consf 2y ago
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tbrake 2y ago
Deep down I believe such things about both dogs and cats to some degree. But also this is also a survey of pet owners about their own pets' behaviors, and I can't shake the feeling there's more than a bit of projection/anthropomorphism involved. The link from the article contained snippets but I can't access the full paper. For anyone who can (if you would be so kind) did they share similar concerns and/or control for them?
solardev 2y ago
Biologically, it would be pretty strange for grieving to not have evolved pretty early on in the mammalian brain, no? It would be pretty weird for a smart, social mammal to simply ignore the death of a beloved companion. Are there any social mammals that DON'T grieve? Maybe large herd/flock animals (deer, bat, rodents)...? It was surprisingly hard to find a scientific consensus on this topic. Maybe there isn't one yet? It seemed obvious to me, but that's not data, just anecdotal experience with animals.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Biologically, it would be pretty strange for grieving to not have evolved pretty early on in the mammalian brain, no? Depends. How would it benefit the mammal?
  - kevingadd 2y ago
    A stress response to the death of a fellow mammal could contribute to discouraging risk-seeking, maybe?
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      And knowing the member is no longer a member of the herd or pack?
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        That has nothing to do with grief.
        actionfromafar 2y ago
        Ok, let's begin from the other end. What evolutionary benefit does grief have in humans?
        foldr 2y ago
DashAnimal 2y ago
I would be very very surprised if this were just limited to cats and dogs. If you've ever seen previously factory-farmed pigs, cows, and sheep there is just so much joy and care in them. Our relationship with animals needs to be heavily reevaluated.
- Volundr 2y ago
  I doubt it is. Several years ago a squirrel was hit by a car outside my work. There were several squirrels on the sidewalk watching, and one would keep running to the corpse and pushing on it like it was trying to wake it up, running away when a car came, and running back when it passed. This continued until I got a shovel and moved it to the dumpster because I was afraid we'd end up with more dead squirrels.
deleted 2y ago
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DoesntMatter22 2y ago
I had a cat and a dog. I had to put the dog to sleep and I came home and was so upset. My cat came over and I pet her. Her reaction was like "we had a dog? I think I'd remember if we had a dog"
dawnerd 2y ago
Yep can confirm. Had two cats and when the one died this last winter her brother has been definitely acting differently. It’s kinda sad, I can tell he’s trying to find her still too.
drakonka 2y ago
When my 6-month-old kitten was sick and in the hospital, his 3-month-old "sister" would walk around the apartment yowling constantly. This would be broken up only by periods of her clinging to/around me in a way she never has before or since (she was always much more independent than the other one), before going back on her search.
- quakeguy 2y ago
  Every me needs a you.
passion__desire 2y ago
Anyone who has spend significant times with animals know they are emotional and have personalities and behave just like us in some respects. Not my personal experience but stories from relatives who have from farm animals. A quick glance at #pets #animals tiktok or instagram will prove it.
boogieknite 2y ago
An anecdote of a somewhat opposite experience with 2 cats. One had a big personality, very outgoing with strangers, and only left family members alone go hunting[1]. The other was a bit dopey and didn't groom well. After the superstar cat passed then the surviving cat became much more energetic, playful, and outgoing. We all commented he seemed to step into the limelight after his counterpart passed. Still not sure if it was driven by us giving him more attention or by him "activating" and demanding more attention. As for cats and dogs: our cat seems uninterested in our dog. But when the dogs boarded our cat walks room to room screaming until the dogs back home. [1]i was a kid, my cat stays inside now. Sorry birds :(
frinxor 2y ago
Makes sense, I dread the day when one of my cats passes (5 year old and 1 year old cat). A nitpick: The researchers are asking the owners for the owners' observations during a time of grief, which doesn't seem as robust as it could be. Humans would be emotional, grieving, and also projecting their own loss to their other animals. (Theres not much of a control or a fair baseline here)
TurkishPoptart 2y ago
How do cats know if another pet dies? Oftentimes they don't witness the actual death - the cat will just "disappear" because the owner would take it to the vet and the cat may be put to sleep there.
4oo4 2y ago
If you have concerns about having to potentially put down a pet, find an at home euthanasia vet, IMO it's the best way to deal with this process. Having animals be able to see and smell the death happening helps them understand, you don't have to worry about transporting an animal in rough condition, and having them in a familiar environment when it happens makes it far less stressful for them. Last year, I had planned to have my dog put down a few weeks after his health started really declining, but when it was obvious that he was in unbearable pain, the vet agreed to come out later that day, on just a few hours notice, no questions asked. The dog was very closely bonded to my two cats (who themselves are a bonded pair of litter mates) and having the dog euthanized this way allowed the cats to understand what happened. They were pretty distraught afterward (as was I) but weren't looking for him around the house. Their personalities changed in that they were more stressed out when I had company at the house, and didn't really return to normal until I adopted another dog about a month ago that they were able to bond with in a really similar way. Because of how closely the cats are bonded I definitely will need to use one when the time comes for either cat. I really don't know how someone could deal with putting down animals all day, but if you can find a good one they are fantastic. In addition to helping my cats, it definitely helped me process the situation way better than if it had been done in a sterile setting at a vet's office.
bitwize 2y ago
Cats are loving, lovable little beasties and anyone who says otherwise is either lying, or repeating propaganda from dog people. Cat body language is more difficult for humans to decipher, whereas dogs literally evolved extra eye muscles to better make those adorable expressions at us. That doesn't make it the cat's problem if you miss their signs of love. The orneriest cat I knew became highly, HIGHLY distressed when she lost her hearing and with it, constant assurance that her humans were around.
TheBozzCL 2y ago
Another anecdote to add to the pile. We used to have semi-feral cats living in our shed. One time, one of them had kittens. Not too long after, our dogs broke into the fenced area around the shed and killed and ate the kittens. We only found some blood and bits and pieces, it was gruesome. For quite a while, the mom went around meowing like crazy, she looked very distressed. I guess she didn’t see them die, there wan’t much for her to find and understand. I really don’t know why our dogs were so aggressive towards smaller animals. They were perfectly fine with people and kids, but we has to keep them far away from the cats and chickens. I guess they learned from each other.
addicted 2y ago
I don’t know how anyone who has pets, especially cats, would question this. Of course, the grieving brings up the awkward question about all the other animals that we don’t categorize as companion animals and abuse and murder for trivial and unnecessary reasons.
JohnBooty 2y ago
Very interesting. I've been lucky enough to have some very affectionate and loving pets. However, they have generally just been closely bonded to us, not the other pets. Following various deaths (2 cats, 1 dog) and departures (1 cat and 1 dog from a departing housemate) the remaining pets didn't seem to show any lasting behavior change at all. The only thing I observed is that, after fellow cats died or departed, the remaining cats spent a day or two roaming the house and seemingly searching for them. They seemed to be in something like "stalking" mode, moving slowly and stealthily. But, they didn't seem distressed. My 2nd dog actually seemed happier after the first one died. Seemed happier to have us "for himself." Domesticated dogs and cats are social, and are clearly capable of love for any reasonable definition of the word "love."
xg15 2y ago
> US researchers say findings challenge view that cats are antisocial This is an actual "view"? I thought that was a stereotype, possibly entertained by people who never had any extensive interactions with cats.

118 points by hackernj 2y ago

I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," but they clearly do enjoy the company of people and other animals they like, and react to them no longer being around. The first time I went on a two-week holiday after getting my cat, when I got back, she became super anxious about me leaving. Whenever I left, she would wait near door and meow loudly until I came back. It took a while for her to start to trust that I wouldn't just disappear again when I left. Edit 1: I have no idea idea why people are voting this down. I'd love for somebody to explain to me what about my comment is causing them to do that. Edit 2: I guess the word "grieve" is ambiguous, but I understand it in this context to mean "being upset at somebody else's death." Of course cats are upset if somebody they like isn't around, that's what I'm describing happened with my cat. I just doubt it's because they know that somebody died. Edit 3: I think I might have been wrong, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41182137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41182137 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41182236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41182236

shepardrtc 2y ago
> I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," Cats are very loving animals that can bond deeply to others. They just show it in different ways. Of course they can grieve.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  > Cats are very loving animals that can bond deeply to others That's... that's what I said? That's why I put "grieve" in quotes, because in the article, they used it specifically as a reaction to death. But death is probably not a concept a cat understands. They understand concepts like "absence" and "missing," but I doubt they know that things die.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    > I doubt they know that things die. Killing is what a cat does, left to its own devices.
    - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
      That doesn't mean they understand the concept of death. Animals don't even need to have a brain to kill other animals.
      - triceratops 2y ago
        > understand the concept of death You have to define what this means, because I honestly have no idea what you mean. Animals understand alive vs not alive perfectly well.
  - simion314 2y ago
    >But death is probably not a concept a cat understands. They understand concepts like "absence" and "missing," but I doubt they know that things die. Why are you so confident that cats can understand some concepts but not death, as a predator they kill animals, so do youy think that in their mind they think that after they kill an animal that animal is just sleeping and should wake up soon? I am wondering what a cat that acknowledges a friend died or "is sleeping the long one" is thinking if they dream about them, is that confusing for them, dead cats comming to you in a dream.
    - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
      "as a predator they kill animals, so do youy think that in their mind they think that after they kill an animal that animal is just sleeping and should wake up soon?" This is a very human approach to describing how a cat perceives the world. A lot of animals kill other animals. Some of these animals don't even have brains. I don't think "killing" is a necessary or sufficient precondition for understanding death. "is thinking if they dream about them, is that confusing for them" I think this is an interesting question in general. Cats seem to understand the difference between dreams and reality. When my cat seems to have a nightmare and I wake her up, she calms down immediately, so she must have some understanding that her dream was not real.
actionfromafar 2y ago
I think it is an evolutionary benefit for a social creature to understand a difference between "not currently here" and "not functioning anymore" (i.e. "died"). This is the "why". The "how", apparently is by feelings or emotions or whatever you want to call it.
triceratops 2y ago
> I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," Why wouldn't they understand it? Death is a natural process. They may not be aware of their own mortality. But they can tell if another animal has died. And that if it has died it isn't coming back. It's common advice to let dogs see and smell the bodies of their deceased companions, so they know they aren't coming back. You've already said they react in a particular way when people or other animals they care about aren't around anymore. That's grieving. > I have no idea idea why people are voting this down Because you're stating something incorrect, confidently.
- _a_a_a_ 2y ago
  That's unfair. "I very much doubt…" Is a statement of his opinion and not fact.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  >Because you're stating something incorrect, confidently. I've read about this, though, and the scientific consensus seems to be that cats do not, in fact, understand the concept of death, because they tend to wait for deceased owners to return. The same applies to dogs. They understand the concept of absence, obviously, and they find it upsetting, but I think calling it "grief" is misleading, because it implies that they know that the person they miss is actually dead.
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    But have these cats inspected the corpse of the deceased owner? Also, it's pretty common for humans to expect their loved ones to return, at least for a while until the reality sets in. Certain situations (like returning from a trip or visiting a place where they used to be) can trigger it long after acceptance.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    You're saying if they see and smell the dead body of a person or animal they knew, they don't know it's permanent?
_a_a_a_ 2y ago
Not a down voter but > I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," My guess is someone disagrees with both of these claims. To be fair, your doubting that they can grieve is a bit ambiguous – of course they can grieve but whether they can grieve over a death, assumes they understand death as distinct from 'where have they gone?'.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  I guess the word "grieve" is ambiguous, but I understand it in this context in the sense of "being upset at somebody else's death." Of course cats are upset if somebody they like isn't around, but it's not because they know that this person is dead.
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=41182137&goto=item%3Fid%3D41181610%2341182137 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=41182137&goto=item%3Fi...
    - _a_a_a_ 2y ago
      Oh, ok, thanks. Interesting.
consf 2y ago
While the concept of "grieving" in animals, particularly cats, might be different from human grieving, it’s clear that they do experience significant emotional responses to changes in their social environment
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  Yes, that's what I'm describing happened with my cat. I never denied that, I provided relatively objective evidence that this is true, because the article suggests that people might overstate how their cats react to absence, which I do not believe to be true.
  - consf 2y ago
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tsunamifury 2y ago
I’ve noticed pet owners get angry when you point out the mid-anthropomorphic ideas they have about their animals. I assume they take it as disrespect that their pet is an animal that is different than them. Rather than accepting they are simply another form of life with whole different motivations and concepts.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  It's not that. Cats and dogs are very different to us, but when you live with them, you might learn how nuanced and complex they can be.
  - InsideOutSanta 2y ago
    But that's what I'm pointing out in my original comment... Cats definitely experience love, they notice the absence of people or animals they love, and they react to it. All I'm saying is that I don't think the word "grief" is the correct word in this context, because grief implies an understanding of the concept of death, which is a very human idea that we had to learn. We weren't born with this understanding, learning about death is something very upsetting that children have to go through.
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      I'm not saying other social animals have some kind of abstract understanding to death, but that they very, most, extremely, likely have an innate response to seeing dead members of their "pack" or other social structure. And if so, it would be very strange if humans did not have it too. You may believe it is not so, but maybe you now understand my position?
    - Jtsummers 2y ago
      > Grief is the anguish experienced after significant loss, usually the death of a beloved person. Grief often includes physiological distress, separation anxiety, confusion, yearning, obsessive dwelling on the past, and apprehension about the future. -- https://www.apa.org/topics/grief https://www.apa.org/topics/grief That seems to describe the behavior people have seen cats display after the loss of someone or another animal in their homes. Maybe they don't know it's death, but they know it's a loss and exhibit signs of distress, anxiety, and confusion. We can't really ask them to find out if they're dwelling on the past or apprehensive about the future though.
poszlem 2y ago
It's pretty gross to see a perfectly fine post get downvoted. I bet it's just people having a knee-jerk reaction to something they don't agree with, or maybe some weird psychological thing. I see this stuff all the time, and it bugs me that people here can't seem to keep their emotions in check. Instead, they hit that downvote button like it's a "La la la, I can't hear you!" switch.
yungporko 2y ago
i dont know to what degree they do or don't understand death, but i definitely wouldn't be surprised to learn that they do. rats certainly do, and i can't imagine it's a huge leap between them. actually now that i think about it, having owned plenty of both as pets, cats are definitely a lot dumber than rats so now i'm definitely not sure.
colechristensen 2y ago
>I very much doubt cats understand the concept of death and can "grieve," You're putting a lot of weight with the philosophical definitions of grieve and death for a cat. Yeah, it's probably not the same understanding as a human, as a social animal it's probably not the no understanding at all either. The article is like "cats react to death like they understand what it is" and you're ambiguously insinuating that they don't without defining your terms or actually adding any substance. "Cats might understand death but not the same way I do" is both obvious and probable and not particularly interesting.

donatj 2y ago

Oh, I would absolutely believe it. We were alerted our one cat had died suddenly in the bathtub to the sound of our other cat howling outside the bathroom door. The surviving cat then acted really strange for the next week or so.

g96alqdm0x 2y ago
this reads a little bit like your cat drowned, is that the case?
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  Probably not drowned. Cats, when sick, tend to find isolated places, probably cooler, where they will lay down. Tubs seem to be a common place for cats to go to near the end.
- donatj 2y ago
  Nope, not drowned. He had just died laying in our bathtub. It was a place he liked to lay normally.

rezaprima 2y ago

My child told me that when a cat of our neighbour died, she saw the other cat silently shed tears

mberning 2y ago

They grieve so much that have been known to consume the deceased.

shagie 2y ago
https://www.science.org/content/article/yes-your-pet-might-eat-your-corpse-s-problem-investigators https://www.science.org/content/article/yes-your-pet-might-e... > Previous studies have revealed some differences between canine and feline scavenging. Dogs tend to eat the face and throats of humans, then break the ribs and chew on bones. Cats, on the other hand, often strip skin from the nose, upper lip, and fingers (the same places, Rando notes, that they nip at when playing with a living owner). Scavenging is more common with dogs than cats, Byard adds, “but I don’t trust either of them.”
Der_Einzige 2y ago
Why are folks downvoting the truth? This is common behavior in cats/dogs and NOT common in humans at all outside of extreme famine, even then it's rare.

FriedrichN 2y ago

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has paid attention to their cats' behaviour when another pet dies. I remember when one of our four cats didn't come home, there were definitely changes in how the remaining three behaved. Apparently the cat got hit by a car and was found by someone and dumped in one of those bins where they dump dead animals for rendering. We took her home and laid her on the lawn so the other cats could know that she was dead. Each of the cats came one by one, giving it a sniff and concluding that she was dead. One of them however stayed with her until we took her away to bury her, an incredibly endearing display. It took a while before they all started acting like they did before. And with the subsequent deaths of all the remaining cats, as they are all sadly deceased, I saw similar things happen. We should not anthropomorphise animals, but that doesn't mean they don't have complex feelings or thoughts. If we find that even bees can "play", it's not that weird if cats can "grieve".

throwaway5752 2y ago
It isn't just cats. Elephants mourn as do whales and dophins, dogs, cows, pigs, parrots and other birds, and apes (including humans) among others. If one has any sort of biology background the silliness of these types of studies is clear. Humans are simply animals, there is nothing distinct about us aside from being further out on the distribution of cognitive ability. It would be news if an advanced member of animalia didn't experience grief from the death of another. If an animal can enjoy the presence of another animal (as they clearly can) it should be assumed they can mourn their loss.

brainless 2y ago

As a child, I used to spend a lot of time with insects. I wanted to understand how they understand the world. I have thought about death and how other animals may perceive it. In the recent years, with a lot of machine comprehension, I find myself asking these questions again. And I spend a lot more time with animals now, so that aids in the process. In a way a deeper question I have is do we humans actually "understand" death in similar ways? I personally do not think so and it arises from how much or little I have seen people spend time pondering on these topics. With some, I can discuss hypotheticals easily and with others I just can not. They do not admire these subjects and I wonder if our brains just perceive some of these things differently. Time is another such topic. I should add that we do not need to agree on what is "death" in order to grieve the missing. But I guess how would cats know death vs missing (vacation)?

astura 2y ago

I had two cats who lived together for 11 years, but they only barely tolerated each other, they didn't fight but they also didn't spend time together, play together, sleep together, or groom each other. So when one died I was shocked that the other paced around yowling for days. I don't know if he missed her specifically or was just confused about where she was and his confusion is what was causing distress.

MentatOnMelange 2y ago

Growing up, my family had 2 cats, both adopted at the same time as kittens. They slept curled up with each other and played together constantly. One of them died suddenly years later. As painful as that was, it was even more heartbreaking to see our other cat dealing with his death. She did not understand why he had disappeared, and grew increasingly upset in the days following. Searching everywhere around the house making distressed meows at all hours. Demanding to have every door opened so she could search every inch of the house multiple times. After a week, she began to understand our other cat was not coming back. For at least a month, her appetite disappeared, she was grooming herself compulsively and needed to be near one of us 24/7. This is only one anecdote… but to me the fact animals can grieve is beyond question

not2b 2y ago
We had a very similar experience when one of our two cats who had been together for many years died. The survivor was miserable to the point that we were worried about her. After a few months we adopted a kitten, and after a period of adjustment (lots of hissing at first), the old cat bonded with the new cat and seemed much happier.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  I have a similar experience. My cats were brothers and one disappeared (I allowed them to be indoors/outdoors). The remaining cat meowed constantly; it was incredibly sad. I got a kitten a couple of months later and they bonded quickly. In my experience cats are always happier when they have a friend, which isn't surprising.
  - not2b 2y ago
    Two cats is the right number of cats to have, at least for us. Two are much happier than one, and more than two is hard to deal with.
DidYaWipe 2y ago
Yeah, the title of this post is so odd. "Even dogs?" Of course dogs are included. Dogs and cats are often inseparable companions.

dugite-code 2y ago

I still remember after my first dog died the cat would check his kennel and favorite spots for weeks while sadly meowing. It was heartbreaking to watch, especially because she was a very quiet cat and rarely meowed at all.

consf 2y ago
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selykg 2y ago

I had to say goodbye to one of my cats on Monday. I found out she had cancer on Thursday after she collapsed. Did enough to keep her around and not in too much pain over the weekend but Monday was the day. I cried my eyes out before taking her to the vet for the last time and she came up to me and licked my face and nibbled. She was an extremely affectionate cat. I brought her back home so the other two could see/sniff her because I didn't want them to not understand that she just disappeared. One of them is definitely more concerned than the other. Cats are pretty amazing creatures and while not all of them are super affectionate (my other two aren't) they seem to understand a lot more than we give them credit for. Mine always know and understand when I'm not feeling well and show it in their own ways. I will miss the hugs and cuddles from the one I said goodbye to... I needed those hugs and cuddles this week but the one that would give them wasn't with me anymore. Tough times. I would encourage anyone to take the time with their animals and give them attention and love. You never know when a surprise may come and you have very little time to say goodbye.

nextaccountic 2y ago
> I brought her back home so the other two could see/sniff her because I didn't want them to not understand that she just disappeared. One of them is definitely more concerned than the other. I also had a cat funeral when a cat died. I like to think that seeing and sniffing the dead body gave the other cats closure
- selykg 2y ago
  I've heard it's really important for bonded pairs. None of mine are bonded like that, but I still wanted to make sure I did the right thing and not make things worse than they already were. I'd highly recommend others do it if possible just to be a little proactive in sparing our little furry critters some possible pain and suffering.

consf 2y ago

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tbrake 2y ago

Deep down I believe such things about both dogs and cats to some degree. But also this is also a survey of pet owners about their own pets' behaviors, and I can't shake the feeling there's more than a bit of projection/anthropomorphism involved. The link from the article contained snippets but I can't access the full paper. For anyone who can (if you would be so kind) did they share similar concerns and/or control for them?

solardev 2y ago

Biologically, it would be pretty strange for grieving to not have evolved pretty early on in the mammalian brain, no? It would be pretty weird for a smart, social mammal to simply ignore the death of a beloved companion. Are there any social mammals that DON'T grieve? Maybe large herd/flock animals (deer, bat, rodents)...? It was surprisingly hard to find a scientific consensus on this topic. Maybe there isn't one yet? It seemed obvious to me, but that's not data, just anecdotal experience with animals.

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> Biologically, it would be pretty strange for grieving to not have evolved pretty early on in the mammalian brain, no? Depends. How would it benefit the mammal?
- kevingadd 2y ago
  A stress response to the death of a fellow mammal could contribute to discouraging risk-seeking, maybe?
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    And knowing the member is no longer a member of the herd or pack?
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      That has nothing to do with grief.
      - actionfromafar 2y ago
        Ok, let's begin from the other end. What evolutionary benefit does grief have in humans?
        foldr 2y ago

DashAnimal 2y ago

I would be very very surprised if this were just limited to cats and dogs. If you've ever seen previously factory-farmed pigs, cows, and sheep there is just so much joy and care in them. Our relationship with animals needs to be heavily reevaluated.

Volundr 2y ago
I doubt it is. Several years ago a squirrel was hit by a car outside my work. There were several squirrels on the sidewalk watching, and one would keep running to the corpse and pushing on it like it was trying to wake it up, running away when a car came, and running back when it passed. This continued until I got a shovel and moved it to the dumpster because I was afraid we'd end up with more dead squirrels.

deleted 2y ago

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DoesntMatter22 2y ago

I had a cat and a dog. I had to put the dog to sleep and I came home and was so upset. My cat came over and I pet her. Her reaction was like "we had a dog? I think I'd remember if we had a dog"

dawnerd 2y ago

Yep can confirm. Had two cats and when the one died this last winter her brother has been definitely acting differently. It’s kinda sad, I can tell he’s trying to find her still too.

drakonka 2y ago

When my 6-month-old kitten was sick and in the hospital, his 3-month-old "sister" would walk around the apartment yowling constantly. This would be broken up only by periods of her clinging to/around me in a way she never has before or since (she was always much more independent than the other one), before going back on her search.

quakeguy 2y ago
Every me needs a you.

passion__desire 2y ago

Anyone who has spend significant times with animals know they are emotional and have personalities and behave just like us in some respects. Not my personal experience but stories from relatives who have from farm animals. A quick glance at #pets #animals tiktok or instagram will prove it.

boogieknite 2y ago

An anecdote of a somewhat opposite experience with 2 cats. One had a big personality, very outgoing with strangers, and only left family members alone go hunting[1]. The other was a bit dopey and didn't groom well. After the superstar cat passed then the surviving cat became much more energetic, playful, and outgoing. We all commented he seemed to step into the limelight after his counterpart passed. Still not sure if it was driven by us giving him more attention or by him "activating" and demanding more attention. As for cats and dogs: our cat seems uninterested in our dog. But when the dogs boarded our cat walks room to room screaming until the dogs back home. [1]i was a kid, my cat stays inside now. Sorry birds :(

frinxor 2y ago

Makes sense, I dread the day when one of my cats passes (5 year old and 1 year old cat). A nitpick: The researchers are asking the owners for the owners' observations during a time of grief, which doesn't seem as robust as it could be. Humans would be emotional, grieving, and also projecting their own loss to their other animals. (Theres not much of a control or a fair baseline here)

TurkishPoptart 2y ago

How do cats know if another pet dies? Oftentimes they don't witness the actual death - the cat will just "disappear" because the owner would take it to the vet and the cat may be put to sleep there.

4oo4 2y ago

If you have concerns about having to potentially put down a pet, find an at home euthanasia vet, IMO it's the best way to deal with this process. Having animals be able to see and smell the death happening helps them understand, you don't have to worry about transporting an animal in rough condition, and having them in a familiar environment when it happens makes it far less stressful for them. Last year, I had planned to have my dog put down a few weeks after his health started really declining, but when it was obvious that he was in unbearable pain, the vet agreed to come out later that day, on just a few hours notice, no questions asked. The dog was very closely bonded to my two cats (who themselves are a bonded pair of litter mates) and having the dog euthanized this way allowed the cats to understand what happened. They were pretty distraught afterward (as was I) but weren't looking for him around the house. Their personalities changed in that they were more stressed out when I had company at the house, and didn't really return to normal until I adopted another dog about a month ago that they were able to bond with in a really similar way. Because of how closely the cats are bonded I definitely will need to use one when the time comes for either cat. I really don't know how someone could deal with putting down animals all day, but if you can find a good one they are fantastic. In addition to helping my cats, it definitely helped me process the situation way better than if it had been done in a sterile setting at a vet's office.

bitwize 2y ago

Cats are loving, lovable little beasties and anyone who says otherwise is either lying, or repeating propaganda from dog people. Cat body language is more difficult for humans to decipher, whereas dogs literally evolved extra eye muscles to better make those adorable expressions at us. That doesn't make it the cat's problem if you miss their signs of love. The orneriest cat I knew became highly, HIGHLY distressed when she lost her hearing and with it, constant assurance that her humans were around.

TheBozzCL 2y ago

Another anecdote to add to the pile. We used to have semi-feral cats living in our shed. One time, one of them had kittens. Not too long after, our dogs broke into the fenced area around the shed and killed and ate the kittens. We only found some blood and bits and pieces, it was gruesome. For quite a while, the mom went around meowing like crazy, she looked very distressed. I guess she didn’t see them die, there wan’t much for her to find and understand. I really don’t know why our dogs were so aggressive towards smaller animals. They were perfectly fine with people and kids, but we has to keep them far away from the cats and chickens. I guess they learned from each other.

addicted 2y ago

I don’t know how anyone who has pets, especially cats, would question this. Of course, the grieving brings up the awkward question about all the other animals that we don’t categorize as companion animals and abuse and murder for trivial and unnecessary reasons.

JohnBooty 2y ago

Very interesting. I've been lucky enough to have some very affectionate and loving pets. However, they have generally just been closely bonded to us, not the other pets. Following various deaths (2 cats, 1 dog) and departures (1 cat and 1 dog from a departing housemate) the remaining pets didn't seem to show any lasting behavior change at all. The only thing I observed is that, after fellow cats died or departed, the remaining cats spent a day or two roaming the house and seemingly searching for them. They seemed to be in something like "stalking" mode, moving slowly and stealthily. But, they didn't seem distressed. My 2nd dog actually seemed happier after the first one died. Seemed happier to have us "for himself." Domesticated dogs and cats are social, and are clearly capable of love for any reasonable definition of the word "love."

xg15 2y ago

> US researchers say findings challenge view that cats are antisocial This is an actual "view"? I thought that was a stereotype, possibly entertained by people who never had any extensive interactions with cats.