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> humans have no free will I believe that human brains harness quantum uncertainty and chaos theory to combine stateful information (such as preference for cho

by oezi 2y ago

> humans have no free will I believe that human brains harness quantum uncertainty and chaos theory to combine stateful information (such as preference for chocolate icecream) and recursive processes to make 'free' decisions which aren't random and fundamentally unknowable to outsiders without destroying the human (similar to a quantum system which can't be measured in more than one dimension without destroying it).

baseballdork 2y ago
At what point did the brain transition from not "harnessing quantum uncertainty and chaos theory to combine stateful information and recursive processes" to doing so? Do fish brains? What about the jellyfish nervous system? My problem with these types of explanations is that they are so egotistical. We probably all agree that a rock doesn't have free will. Is there no quantum uncertainty and chaos theory happening inside a rock? What about in a solar system?
- oezi 2y ago
  > a rock A rock certainly isn't going to surprise us in any time scale relevant for us. The processes shaping it will be more from the outside than inside it's boundaries. Certainly chaos theory and quantum uncertainty are at play, but the stone is rather just like a single pendulum which swings rather very predictably and humans seem to be more like dual pendulums which are so chaotic that they escape simulation beyond minutes. We have come far to scan the brain for the manifestation of conscious decision making, but nobody serious is claiming that we can predict human choices from say 20 minutes before a decision is made. In the same sense that we can predict the weather now 7-10 days but would never think it viable to go for 100 day weather forecasts. This phenomenon is certainly on a sliding scale and we might simulate rather well jellyfish, fly, and increasingly bigger brains, but the fundamental uncertainty just means we won't be able to get the outcome correct enough the longer we look into the future.
  - baseballdork 2y ago
    Our inability to predict something on an arbitrary timescale isn't the threshold for free will, right? Otherwise, we'd say tornadoes and hurricanes exhibit free will.
    - oezi 2y ago
      I think that is a requirement for free will, but not sufficient. You also need locality (from within a boundary rather than remote controlled) and difference from randomness. Probably some more.
BobaFloutist 2y ago
I believe that with perfect information, humans are predictable, but that doesn't make the will any less free. Just because someone could predict that you would make a decision doesn't mean you didn't make the decision, it just means you're internally consistent.
- baseballdork 2y ago
  Isn't this just saying that you _don't_ have free will? All of your choices are made before you are even born in this world view.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    But you still get to make them yourself, too. If free will is synonymous only with unpredictability, than you'd necessarily have to make some choices that you don't want to in order to demonstrate free will, and that doesn't really make sense to me.
    - baseballdork 2y ago
      What am I making if it was determined before I existed? It can't be a choice, because I don't actually have any other choice.
      - BobaFloutist 2y ago
        I figure you have the choice. You could choose to do otherwise, but you don't. If someone offers to give me a million dollars absolutely free, or to not do so, just because I could be predicted to take the million dollars doesn't mean I don't have the choice to reject it. I'm not being coerced to take it. It's just a very predictable decision.
        baseballdork 2y ago
        > It's just a very predictable decision But if it's a certainty, with perfect information, then there's no choice to be had. The choice is an illusion.
prmph 2y ago
Exactly, this is my thinking as well; I've mentioned the recursive concept in another comment before. And I suspect the question of free will is not resolvable until the hard problem of consciousness is solved. The cells in our bodies may not have free will, but we might. The issue involves characterizing what exactly does or does not have free will, which is bound up with the question of consciousness.

by oezi 2y ago

baseballdork 2y ago

At what point did the brain transition from not "harnessing quantum uncertainty and chaos theory to combine stateful information and recursive processes" to doing so? Do fish brains? What about the jellyfish nervous system? My problem with these types of explanations is that they are so egotistical. We probably all agree that a rock doesn't have free will. Is there no quantum uncertainty and chaos theory happening inside a rock? What about in a solar system?

oezi 2y ago
> a rock A rock certainly isn't going to surprise us in any time scale relevant for us. The processes shaping it will be more from the outside than inside it's boundaries. Certainly chaos theory and quantum uncertainty are at play, but the stone is rather just like a single pendulum which swings rather very predictably and humans seem to be more like dual pendulums which are so chaotic that they escape simulation beyond minutes. We have come far to scan the brain for the manifestation of conscious decision making, but nobody serious is claiming that we can predict human choices from say 20 minutes before a decision is made. In the same sense that we can predict the weather now 7-10 days but would never think it viable to go for 100 day weather forecasts. This phenomenon is certainly on a sliding scale and we might simulate rather well jellyfish, fly, and increasingly bigger brains, but the fundamental uncertainty just means we won't be able to get the outcome correct enough the longer we look into the future.
- baseballdork 2y ago
  Our inability to predict something on an arbitrary timescale isn't the threshold for free will, right? Otherwise, we'd say tornadoes and hurricanes exhibit free will.
  - oezi 2y ago
    I think that is a requirement for free will, but not sufficient. You also need locality (from within a boundary rather than remote controlled) and difference from randomness. Probably some more.

BobaFloutist 2y ago

I believe that with perfect information, humans are predictable, but that doesn't make the will any less free. Just because someone could predict that you would make a decision doesn't mean you didn't make the decision, it just means you're internally consistent.

baseballdork 2y ago
Isn't this just saying that you _don't_ have free will? All of your choices are made before you are even born in this world view.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  But you still get to make them yourself, too. If free will is synonymous only with unpredictability, than you'd necessarily have to make some choices that you don't want to in order to demonstrate free will, and that doesn't really make sense to me.
  - baseballdork 2y ago
    What am I making if it was determined before I existed? It can't be a choice, because I don't actually have any other choice.
    - BobaFloutist 2y ago
      I figure you have the choice. You could choose to do otherwise, but you don't. If someone offers to give me a million dollars absolutely free, or to not do so, just because I could be predicted to take the million dollars doesn't mean I don't have the choice to reject it. I'm not being coerced to take it. It's just a very predictable decision.
      - baseballdork 2y ago
        > It's just a very predictable decision But if it's a certainty, with perfect information, then there's no choice to be had. The choice is an illusion.

prmph 2y ago

Exactly, this is my thinking as well; I've mentioned the recursive concept in another comment before. And I suspect the question of free will is not resolvable until the hard problem of consciousness is solved. The cells in our bodies may not have free will, but we might. The issue involves characterizing what exactly does or does not have free will, which is bound up with the question of consciousness.