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Coq will be renamed into 'The Rocq Prover'
- laurent_du 2y ago[flagged]
- michaelt 2y agoExpanded details at https://coq.discourse.group/t/coq-community-survey-2022-results-part-iv-and-itp-paper-announcement/2001 https://coq.discourse.group/t/coq-community-survey-2022-resu... I'm not part of the Coq community so I've got no strong opinions on this. But I do know I've often heard people saying GIMP could do with a better name.
- xanderlewis 2y agogit has always been funny to me — as a Brit, at least. GitHub even more so.
- delfinom 2y agogit was intentionally given its name by Linus is the joke. Everyone else bandwagoning onto it is the lol.
- xanderlewis 2y agoYes! So I’ve read. But since he’s not British I’ve always wondered whether he completely understood the feel of the the word and quite how weird it sounds (to those not already used to it).
- _joel 2y agoMaybe from Monty Python. Programmers love python.
- Freak_NL 2y agoWhy wouldn't he? It's not like British culture is totally impenetrable. Any European over 35 will have ingested a lot of British television reruns over the course of the eighties and nineties. While that won't allow for every nuance, the word 'git' certainly is used in its proper context often enough.
- xanderlewis 2y agoWell, no culture is totally impenetrable with enough exposure/effort. I just wondered how much exposure he had. His English is obviously (beyond) native level but I do feel the subtlety of British English expressions are frequently lost. [*] Europeans, despite their relative geographic and cultural proximity, rarely seem to get British humour and expressions. American culture dominates these days anyway, no matter what you learnt in school. For example, I wonder if he would have thought it was too far to call it ‘prick’? Knowing Linus, perhaps not! [*] (Not because there’s more subtlety than in any other culture/language; all locales have their own unique usages that are hard to truly understand unless you’ve lived there. I’m not claiming there’s anything mythical or unique about BE.)
- cdelsolar 2y agoAs a non Brit, what is the feel of the word? Is it like having a site named IdiotHub?
- lucraft 2y agoMore like AssholeHub. But not so rude.
- libeclipse 2y agoThey're exaggerating. It's a very casual insult, often used playfully
- xanderlewis 2y agoI thought so when I was younger, but I’ve found that it’s often considered worse than words like ‘idiot’ or ‘twit’. Some seem to find it — to my surprise — not just insulting, but crude.
- benwad 2y agoIn the 00s there was a popular wine called "old git". It generally means someone grumpy and cantankerous, but in a playful way (otherwise you'd just call them a c***). So it makes sense for a self-effacing joke about Linus Torvalds.
- xanderlewis 2y agoThis is true. But I think there’s a surprising difference between calling someone ‘an old git’ / ‘a jammy git’ / ‘a grumpy git’ / … and simply calling them ‘a git’. The latter seems quite a lot harsher and less likely to be a joke.
- wyldfire 2y agoHe's Finnish. Most of the English-second-language speaking world learns British English, so I'd expect that he definitely understood the word. > I'm an egotistical bastard, and I name all my projects after myself. First 'Linux', now 'Git'".
- actionfromafar 2y agoIt seems he knew, but I can say I never learned "git" in school.
- anthk 2y ago>British English Academia it's just a few years long. After that... the 90% of the media it's American English.
- xanderlewis 2y agoI haven’t met many Finns, but the Swedes I’ve met seem to have learnt most of their English from watching American television and YouTubers. Knowing a word isn’t the same as having a lifetime of hearing it in varying contexts.
- RichardCA 2y agoIt's reasonable to assume that he knew the Monty Python reference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlv_aZjHXc&t=70s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlv_aZjHXc&t=70s
- lvncelot 2y agoI just noticed that the man page for git calls it "git - the stupid content tracker"
- Joker_vD 2y ago> Change the pronunciation to C.O.Q. > People might not adopt it Well, people were made to pronounce "CoC" as "C. O. C." or "code of conduct" instead of, you know, "Coq", and since Rocq community does have CoC, they could make people to adopt this pronunciation, absolutely.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- TiredOfLife 2y ago4 years ago gimp was forked into glimpse. It is a hugely popular fork. You can't even see it's github because of the huge amount of commits.
- mauricioc 2y agoPreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38779480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38779480
- Cu3PO42 2y agoI have no strong opinion on renaming the project as such and conducting a survey was surely one of the better ways to handle that question. However, one thing in their evaluation of alternative names sprung out at me: > No option receives more likes than dislikes. So the new name was just "the least bad" option. Naming things is hard and getting a community to agree on a name is surely that much harder still, but I still find it a bit sad that the new name is not well-liked.
- Jenk 2y agoDid the options include "don't change it" and did that perform worse than any given new name?
- vslira 2y agoIt doesn’t seem so, but by a slight majority on overall respondents it seems like changing the name was favored. From the post it seems that anglophones were significantly (as in statistically) more likely to change the name for exactly the reason one can imagine
- Cu3PO42 2y agoWhether the name should be changed was a separate question and there was a slight majority in favor of changing it. Among respondents who favored changing the name, there were options that were more liked than disliked, but not by the entire community. You really should take a look at their evaluation. It's quite comprehensive: https://coq.discourse.group/t/coq-community-survey-2022-results-part-iv-and-itp-paper-announcement/2001 https://coq.discourse.group/t/coq-community-survey-2022-resu...
- djtango 2y agoRocq au vin
- dgacmu 2y agoI will say that as a professor who occasionally has to refer to this system in front of a bunch of (American) 18-24 year olds, I'm very grateful for this renaming.
- mon_ 2y agoAs a recent graduate I'll miss asking for "help with my Coq" and proclaiming "my Coq isn't working" during lab sessions
- agumonkey 2y agoSo that's why I never hear any students complaining about how hard it is
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- fvdessen 2y agoAs a native french speaker I am quite surprised by those reactions. 'Bit', means 'dick'/'cock' in french, and it's never really been a big issue at university.
- DonHopkins 2y agoBit sounds so romantic in French.
- Davidbrcz 2y agoDon't forget strings, that are sexy underwear....
- fvdessen 2y agoAnd mac that means pimp ^^
- dgacmu 2y agoI wonder if it's more due to the strength of sexual taboos in America or the frequency of the word -- bits are referred to from the very beginning of the curriculum, whereas theorem provers are only mentioned a few times unless you take a specific class. Both, perhaps - we are still a bit puritanical. After a lot of exposure, I map "coq" in a CS context to the theorem prover and don't find it giggle-worthy, but the reaction of students hearing it for the first time is different. (And outside of that, I'm more likely to think coq au vin, but I'm a cook.)
- righthand 2y ago[flagged]
- sva_ 2y agoSounds like an AMD product.
- kerkeslager 2y agoThis isn't a hill I'm willing to die on, but it's mildly annoying that people couldn't just grow up about this.
- User23 2y agoIsn’t it supposed to be pronounced more like “coke” anyhow?
- Y_Y 2y agoNo not the French word or name, and neither is the German word "Koch" for that matter.
- werdnapk 2y agoThere's no real English way to pronounce it properly without doing it the French way: https://www.google.com/search?q=coq+french+pronouce https://www.google.com/search?q=coq+french+pronouce
- kreetx 2y agoSpecific cohorts do grow up, but also new generations enter college every year. :) And some people really never do grow up in this topic's sense, even in non-native English speaking countries.
- dark-star 2y agototally agree. I mean it's not like "cock" isn't a totally normal word for a male chicken. I bet biology students or ornithologists are the only ones who have grown up in that regard...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- csneeky 2y agoAnd what of the rooster mascot?
- bjoli 2y agoThe new mascot will be a phallos.
- aestetix 2y agoI can't wait for someone to find a problem with this new name, and throw the entire project into disarray for another few years.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- neilv 2y agoSomeone on HN pointed out a problem with a joke in the new name, but they got flagged. Basically, the new name looks like intentional innuendo wordplay related to the problem with the first name We all appreciate various kinds of humor, in the right contexts. But this software seems like something used in professional and academic contexts. Including professional and academic contexts with a history of sometimes being unwelcoming to women. Who might not want to be reminded of old boys' club locker room phallic humor insensitivity throughout each day as they work. So, the new name is going to seem like doubling-down, by those who didn't understand all the problems with the previous name, or didn't consider them problems. I think this is one of those things we sometimes do out of lighthearted intention, with no harm intended, and only later realize and regret. Now's a chance avert some harm and regret.
- lvncelot 2y ago> Basically, the new name looks like intentional innuendo wordplay related to the problem with the first name Maybe I'm stupid (or my English isn't good enough), but I don't see the innuendo.
- stnmtn 2y agoI also am unable to see what the new innuendo is
- neilv 2y agoIf they go through with the name, it'll be pointed out and well known, and then people will realize "oh, that's the intended joke...". Then they won't be able to type and say it during their workday, without at least silently cringing or smirking, at phallic humor being forced upon people in the workplace.
- arantius 2y agoI'm honestly guessing here because I'm not an insider and I don't naturally understand what's going on with this made up word, but I think it's: 1. Name is "coq" which is pronounced like "cock". Tee hee hee I'm so funny I made you say a bad word. (Opinions can differ, but this word being bad isn't a terribly rare opinion IMO.) 2. Obviously, that means Q (at the end of a word!? *) is pronounced like a hard K. 3. Enough people don't like being "forced" to say that word, pick a new name, new name is "rocq". I was confused like you for a while until I figured out the above. If q->k, then this is pronounced "rock". 4. New name learner: Why in the world would you pronounce a Q (at the end of a word) as a K? (and/or) How am I supposed to pronounce that name? I've never seen a word like that before. 5. Oh, tee hee, because of an immature joke from the old name. (Have to explain the old name and make the innuendo, to make the new name make any sense. And the new name makes so little sense, it would be very natural to ask how it came about.) * https://scrabblewordfinder.org/words-ending-in/q https://scrabblewordfinder.org/words-ending-in/q Which never happens -- have you heard of any of these words before? I haven't. (Besides I guess "tranq" which is really an abbreviation.)
- dist-epoch 2y ago> The Coq team has decided that Coq will be renamed into 'The Rocq Prover' They have a typo on the side, it's `The Rocq Hard Prover`
- aeonik 2y agoI pronounce "Coq" with back of my throat to make it a bit different from the word "Cock". Try to emulate the French accent a bit, and it ends of sounding almost like "Coke", but not quite. That being said context matters too, I still refer to loading a round into a gun's chamber as cocking a gun. I've never had an issue referencing the project's name in a professional environment, where most of my colleagues are unfamiliar with it.
- jhanschoo 2y agoIf you're willing to put a bit of time in phonology, English initial c/k is always aspirated (i.e. pronounced with a significant and sudden exhalation) and French initial hard c/k is always unaspirated. The one thing that can have you emulate the French pronunciation the most is by learning to pronounce initial k/t/p in an unaspirated way.
- bachmeier 2y ago> That being said context matters too, I still refer to loading a round into a gun's chamber as cocking a gun. There are multiple meanings of the term, but depending on where you grow up, there may only be one in common use. When I grew up, there was only one meaning of the word, similar to ass, even though that had alternative meanings.