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I’m not sure why this is getting downvoted. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that the difficulty in side loading another OS is incidental, rather than design

by froddd 2y ago

I’m not sure why this is getting downvoted. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that the difficulty in side loading another OS is incidental, rather than designed. A citation would help support the opposite assumption made above.

thebruce87m 2y ago
When it comes to Apple, perfectly reasonable people throw logic to the wind to come up with the most ridiculous theories. It’s annoying as it detracts from actual real conversations.
- Sakos 2y ago
  You might not see the issue there. You might be willing to forgive Apple for it. Plenty of us aren't. And it has nothing to do with "hating Apple", rather it's an extension of hating how Apple makes decisions regarding things like this. I own an M1 Macbook, I've owned an iPhone, I have an iPad. There is no irrational hatred here. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the original comment. I see a person who wants to use their Mac long-term, but their attempt to use it that way is thwarted by Apple's decisions. You're arguing in bad faith by saying things like this > people throw logic to the wind to come up with the most ridiculous theories The user has legitimate grievances and you dismiss it because of this nonsense. You must be joking.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    > hating how Apple makes decisions Apple makes decisions like any other company. They are not going to spend engineering time (money) on things that don’t benefit them in some way - that’s a quick way to go out of business. Doubly so if you are actually enabling customers to move away from your eco system - you might have lost future service sales. You cannot blame apple for acting in its own best interests. That’s the nature of the capitalism beast. If you want hardware to be opened up for the installation of other operating systems, you’ll have to lobby a governing body for that.
    - hu3 2y ago
      > If you want hardware to be opened up for the installation of other operating systems, you’ll have to lobby a governing body for that. No need. That was already fine 20 years ago in x86 land. > You cannot blame apple for acting in its own best interests. That’s the nature of the capitalism beast. Surely you cannot invalidate criticism towards apple using this logic. As I see you don't use the same when criticizing other companies in your other comments.
      - thebruce87m 2y ago
        No need. That was already fine 20 years ago in x86 land. > 25 years of using Linux has told me that this is not the case. > As I see you don't use the same when criticizing other companies in your other comments. Such as?
        hu3 2y ago
        It was a guess but because you're asking the obvious here's your not so generous instance on DataDog: > "Datadog is one of the companies that somehow get a hold of your company email address and spam everyone there with email subjects like “Re: meeting next week”. Instant ick." Come on now? It's just capitalism, aint it mate? /s
        thebruce87m 2y ago
        > Come on now? It's just capitalism It is indeed. And regulation is the answer here too. You can be annoyed at companies playing the game but if you want the rules changed then they aren’t going to do it themselves. I want Linux on apple hardware the same as anyone else, but if I was in apples shoes my priority would be my OS on my hardware unless I had to comply.
        hu3 2y ago
        yeah, that's not what you write about Apple. In fact you wrote that you want to vote AGAINST regulation when it comes to Apple not long ago. Good thing UK is no longer EU so you're a spectator now.
  - giancarlostoro 2y ago
    > I see absolutely nothing wrong with the original comment. I see a person who wants to use their Mac long-term I can put an SSD drive into my wife's 2010 Macbook Pro, and give it new life, and Linux works really nicely on older Macs, though I'd rather let her keep her old Mac so she can look at all her old photos, etc. I can't truly do that on most Macs anymore, nor replace the RAM. Apple made their macbooks too thin, arguably I'm grateful for less carry weight, but realistically, I want to be able to replace faulty components with ease.
    - brookst 2y ago
      As product categories mature, systems get integrated, which makes them harder for DIY repairs and upgrades. Look at the complexity of modern cars; you can’t just do an engine swap or re-gear in your garage. See also Intel’s Lunar Lake, where LPDDR is integrated on-package because it is cheaper, higher performance, and more reliable. But… not user-serviceable. It’s the curse of the hobbyist: the vast majority of buyers are not hobbyists, so product design choices do not favor the hobbyist. Best you can do is find niche brands that focus on your use cases, but of course they will have lower sales volumes, which bring different sorts of pain.
      - hu3 2y ago
        Framework laptops are modern and have replaceable parts.
        BoredPositron 2y ago
        …and they shit the bed more often than not while running Linux. Mine has sleep problems, battery drain and the trackpad does pretty much whatever it wants. The only reply we get from their Linux compatibility guy is don’t use an untested distro… which comes down to you are holding it wrong. System76 might be the better option tbh.
      - goosedragons 2y ago
        Apple doesn't try. There's thinner devices out there with M.2 slots, the Surface Pro X for example is 4mm thinner than a M3 MBA and yet has an insanely easy to access M.2 slot. The other Macs are even more egregious in their lack of at least an M.2 slot. The Mini in particular could have multiple with all the wasted space in the chassis but nope, not a design goal so they don't care.
- tombert 2y ago
  I clarified in a sister thread, I don't think I really came up with a "theory", so much as was complaining about an annoyance. I don't think Apple actively tried to make Linux harder to run, so much as they changed a bunch of stuff which made a lot of previous Linux on Mac stuff not work.
Sakos 2y ago
It doesn't matter whether it was incidental or not. If a company accidentally dumps toxic sludge into a river, people aren't just going to shrug and say "oh, it was an accident". If Asus releases a Windows laptop with hardware changes that make it near impossible to run Linux without years of software engineering effort, people aren't going to shrug and say "oh, it was incidental". It doesn't matter. Although I guess people like you would say "But they never said they would support Linux", which also is beside the point. The fact that Apple is happily creating their own platform which has, by design, no guarantees for longevity (whether from Apple or being able to install Linux as an end-user) is a flaw in itself that, from my perspective, does not deserve being defended. You might not see the issue there. You might be willing to forgive Apple for it. Plenty of us aren't. And it has nothing to do with "hating Apple", rather it's an extension of hating how Apple makes decisions regarding things like this. I own an M1 Macbook, I've owned an iPhone, I have an iPad. There is no irrational hatred here.

by froddd 2y ago

thebruce87m 2y ago

When it comes to Apple, perfectly reasonable people throw logic to the wind to come up with the most ridiculous theories. It’s annoying as it detracts from actual real conversations.

Sakos 2y ago
You might not see the issue there. You might be willing to forgive Apple for it. Plenty of us aren't. And it has nothing to do with "hating Apple", rather it's an extension of hating how Apple makes decisions regarding things like this. I own an M1 Macbook, I've owned an iPhone, I have an iPad. There is no irrational hatred here. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the original comment. I see a person who wants to use their Mac long-term, but their attempt to use it that way is thwarted by Apple's decisions. You're arguing in bad faith by saying things like this > people throw logic to the wind to come up with the most ridiculous theories The user has legitimate grievances and you dismiss it because of this nonsense. You must be joking.
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  > hating how Apple makes decisions Apple makes decisions like any other company. They are not going to spend engineering time (money) on things that don’t benefit them in some way - that’s a quick way to go out of business. Doubly so if you are actually enabling customers to move away from your eco system - you might have lost future service sales. You cannot blame apple for acting in its own best interests. That’s the nature of the capitalism beast. If you want hardware to be opened up for the installation of other operating systems, you’ll have to lobby a governing body for that.
  - hu3 2y ago
    > If you want hardware to be opened up for the installation of other operating systems, you’ll have to lobby a governing body for that. No need. That was already fine 20 years ago in x86 land. > You cannot blame apple for acting in its own best interests. That’s the nature of the capitalism beast. Surely you cannot invalidate criticism towards apple using this logic. As I see you don't use the same when criticizing other companies in your other comments.
    - thebruce87m 2y ago
      No need. That was already fine 20 years ago in x86 land. > 25 years of using Linux has told me that this is not the case. > As I see you don't use the same when criticizing other companies in your other comments. Such as?
      - hu3 2y ago
        It was a guess but because you're asking the obvious here's your not so generous instance on DataDog: > "Datadog is one of the companies that somehow get a hold of your company email address and spam everyone there with email subjects like “Re: meeting next week”. Instant ick." Come on now? It's just capitalism, aint it mate? /s
        thebruce87m 2y ago
        > Come on now? It's just capitalism It is indeed. And regulation is the answer here too. You can be annoyed at companies playing the game but if you want the rules changed then they aren’t going to do it themselves. I want Linux on apple hardware the same as anyone else, but if I was in apples shoes my priority would be my OS on my hardware unless I had to comply.
        hu3 2y ago
        yeah, that's not what you write about Apple. In fact you wrote that you want to vote AGAINST regulation when it comes to Apple not long ago. Good thing UK is no longer EU so you're a spectator now.
- giancarlostoro 2y ago
  > I see absolutely nothing wrong with the original comment. I see a person who wants to use their Mac long-term I can put an SSD drive into my wife's 2010 Macbook Pro, and give it new life, and Linux works really nicely on older Macs, though I'd rather let her keep her old Mac so she can look at all her old photos, etc. I can't truly do that on most Macs anymore, nor replace the RAM. Apple made their macbooks too thin, arguably I'm grateful for less carry weight, but realistically, I want to be able to replace faulty components with ease.
  - brookst 2y ago
    As product categories mature, systems get integrated, which makes them harder for DIY repairs and upgrades. Look at the complexity of modern cars; you can’t just do an engine swap or re-gear in your garage. See also Intel’s Lunar Lake, where LPDDR is integrated on-package because it is cheaper, higher performance, and more reliable. But… not user-serviceable. It’s the curse of the hobbyist: the vast majority of buyers are not hobbyists, so product design choices do not favor the hobbyist. Best you can do is find niche brands that focus on your use cases, but of course they will have lower sales volumes, which bring different sorts of pain.
    - hu3 2y ago
      Framework laptops are modern and have replaceable parts.
      - BoredPositron 2y ago
        …and they shit the bed more often than not while running Linux. Mine has sleep problems, battery drain and the trackpad does pretty much whatever it wants. The only reply we get from their Linux compatibility guy is don’t use an untested distro… which comes down to you are holding it wrong. System76 might be the better option tbh.
    - goosedragons 2y ago
      Apple doesn't try. There's thinner devices out there with M.2 slots, the Surface Pro X for example is 4mm thinner than a M3 MBA and yet has an insanely easy to access M.2 slot. The other Macs are even more egregious in their lack of at least an M.2 slot. The Mini in particular could have multiple with all the wasted space in the chassis but nope, not a design goal so they don't care.
tombert 2y ago
I clarified in a sister thread, I don't think I really came up with a "theory", so much as was complaining about an annoyance. I don't think Apple actively tried to make Linux harder to run, so much as they changed a bunch of stuff which made a lot of previous Linux on Mac stuff not work.

Sakos 2y ago

It doesn't matter whether it was incidental or not. If a company accidentally dumps toxic sludge into a river, people aren't just going to shrug and say "oh, it was an accident". If Asus releases a Windows laptop with hardware changes that make it near impossible to run Linux without years of software engineering effort, people aren't going to shrug and say "oh, it was incidental". It doesn't matter. Although I guess people like you would say "But they never said they would support Linux", which also is beside the point. The fact that Apple is happily creating their own platform which has, by design, no guarantees for longevity (whether from Apple or being able to install Linux as an end-user) is a flaw in itself that, from my perspective, does not deserve being defended. You might not see the issue there. You might be willing to forgive Apple for it. Plenty of us aren't. And it has nothing to do with "hating Apple", rather it's an extension of hating how Apple makes decisions regarding things like this. I own an M1 Macbook, I've owned an iPhone, I have an iPad. There is no irrational hatred here.