6 ms·

MNT Pocket Reform first impressions and hardware

146 points by andypiper 2y ago

ryukafalz 2y ago
I got one of these recently as well, and have similar feelings. MNT's devices are not for everyone; you definitely need to be prepared for some tinkering, and some things are a little bit rough at first. But for a certain kind of person (and I count myself as one of those people) they're so much fun. It definitely has been scratching my tiny laptop itch. I think the first laptop I ever used was my dad's Libretto 70ct back in the day, and I've loved mini laptops ever since. I think they hit on the right input method with that small trackball too, it's very smooth! I also designed a custom back panel for mine, though unfortunately I missed a few details so I'm gonna have to get it re-made. But it's fun to have so many customization options! https://www.terracrypt.net/posts/custom-pocket-reform-lids-have-arrived.html https://www.terracrypt.net/posts/custom-pocket-reform-lids-h...
- tra3 2y ago
  I remember coveting the librettos! And then the slim sony laptops. These days I dont think there’s anything better than a MacBook Air though. What’s the use case for one of these? Data centers?
  - ryukafalz 2y ago
    I can imagine them being useful in a datacenter, yeah. So far for my own use it's been nice for writing at my nearby coffee shop, because it takes up less space on the table than a full-sized laptop and the small screen seems to help avoid distractions (so far, haven't had it for that long, etc). And I don't travel long distances that often, but it probably fits better on train or airplane tray tables than a bigger laptop would too. I'm always worried the person in front of me will recline a bit when my laptop's in just the wrong spot and it'll shatter my screen from the top, haha.
  - nextos 2y ago
    Travel is one use case. I loved the form factor of MBA 11 for ssh and local use of Mutt. I've been keeping an eye on MNT Pocket as a substitute. Reviews look great. The MBA 11 was nice because it fitted in an airplane tray really well.
    - tra3 2y ago
      There’s a thread about 11” Chromebooks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41176578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41176578 Might be a good option.
      - nextos 2y ago
        Thanks, I know, I posted that thread :)
  - wishfish 2y ago
    There's almost nothing in that Libretto size from the mainstream companies. But there are small companies making 8 and 10 inch laptops. GPD seems the most popular brand but there are several you can find on Amazon, Aliexpress, and Ebay. And then there's the Steam Deck, and variants from Asus and Lenovo. But with those you have to supply your own KB + stand. I guess they wouldn't quite count.
    - ryukafalz 2y ago
      Yeah, I had a GPD Micro PC prior to this, and I liked it... but the hinge snapped and replacing it seems like a pretty involved process. The build quality of the Pocket Reform feels much better, and it's a lot more straightforward to get inside and swap things out than with the GPD.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- andypiper 2y ago
  that custom back panel is gorgeous! I would love to know more about how you got that made, as I now, um, need to do something similar...
  - andypiper 2y ago
    you 100% did write about it, reading that now - where did you get it fabbed? tell me more :-)
    - ryukafalz 2y ago
      I got it fabbed at JLCPCB, though later realized that the stock panel had counterbores on its mounting holes so the screws would be flush. JLC can't do that, so I'm going to see if I can DIY that with the drill press at my local hackerspace before I get the next run made. I also accidentally got them made out of PCBs of the wrong thickness, and I forgot that the CPU module and wireless antennas would be in the top half so there's a full copper layer underneath that lettering which won't be great for wireless reception. Ah well, you live and learn :)
      - andypiper 2y ago
        Nice, thanks for the added detail. I'm taking notes! Might see if I can do something similar.
        ryukafalz 2y ago
        I was inspired by this post on Crowd Supply for what it's worth! https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/pocket-reform/updates/on-open-source-hardware-community-building-and-making-pocket-reform-your-own https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/pocket-reform/updates/on-ope... Bit light on detail, but it got me a decent part of the way there.
geerlingguy 2y ago
Like with the MNT Reform (non-pocket), there are a few things that are aesthetically very pleasing (and fun, even), but in day-to-day use make it hard to adopt. On the original Reform, I had some issues adapting to it's slightly non-standard (at least for US English) key layout... and on this one, it has a very visually-pleasing key layout, but I can imagine unless it's your only keyboard, it will take a bit of mind-melding to type well on it. These MNT devices are—at least for now—not the type of things you'd consider to replace a Macbook or a slim laptop for portability and practicality/value. I still want one, lol
- Klasiaster 2y ago
  The latest keyboard version 3.0 is more standard. The swapped control vs caps lock position is something one can probably remap in software. The apparent lack of page-up/down and home/end keys would be more of a problem for me, though. https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform-keyboard-30 https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform-keyboard-30
  - stonogo 2y ago
    The default firmware uses Hyper (the arrow pointing up and to the right) plus left/right for home/end and Hyper plus up/down for page up and page down. I'm not sure it's good enough either.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Input was my #1 issue with any tiny portables. Apart from getting a "good feeling" keyboard, losing the ability to properly touch type really rains on the parade of how you can run a "real" OS on the devices. The Pocket Reform does slightly better than some in that you can try to act like it's a normal keyboard experience if you have a solid surface and can ignore the tiny and non standard layout. The other half of the input story is of course mouse input. Touch controls are just a no go for using a "real" OS on a tiny screen, trackpoints style nubs are mid tier, and (surprisingly) I found ones which reuse the built in gamepad buttons and sticks (E.g. the Ally) are best. It probably has more to do with having the extra physical buttons to both control the mouse and modify the control behavior. My #2 issue was always in realizing how disappointing it was to trade so much performance on top of the things still always being too large to comfortable fit in your actual pocket anyways. If you're already the type that enjoys carrying a portable game console with you then you might enjoy carrying one of the gaming focused mini portables since you can trade some minor clunkiness for more game library flexibility and raw power isn't a huge requirement to have a decent portable game library. If you're wanting to actually use it as a traditional computer... I just don't think I could ever see the device class being more than a novelty which ends up on a shelf after 7 uses for 95% of people that go and buy one. It's cool this one is open hardware and focused on trying to provide a good open software experience but it does make all of the above even a bit rougher (can't help but recoil that every post about the Pocket Reform has a picture of the user at a text terminal).
butterisgood 2y ago
Too small to be practical for me. I can feel my RSI kicking in right away with this form factor. But I will say the MNT Reform stuff is pretty amazing all-around! I just can't anymore with most keyboards after a good 34 years keyboarding. To the younger crowd out there - stretch... Play guitar or something. It helps!
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  It seems some people have it and some don't; I have been keyboarding now for 43 years almost every day and have never even had a twinge. It screwed my health (sitting for decades as computers are my work and also my hobby) for a bit, but never had anything with my hands, fingers, neck or etc. Not sure how it works. My parents did put me on a 10 finger typing course when I was 6; maybe that was it? I typed for years on a GPD pocket 1 as primary work machine (I had to travel a lot) until my eyesight didn't work anymore on that tiny screen.
  - Evidlo 2y ago
    What problems did it cause for you and how did you fix it?
megasquid 2y ago
Typing this from an MNT Reform with a CM4 chip in it. Don't have a Pocket Reform yet, but just want to chime in and say that I love what the MNT team is doing. With the new rk3588 SOM it's possible to have 8 cores and 32 gigs of RAM can't recommend their devices enough. Have a second Reform with an LS1028A. Deeply want them to continue to succeed. So refreshing to have a device that is fully transparent and upgrade-able over time. Waiting for their new server rack mounted form factor to come out so I can put my old SOMs to use in my homelab.
pengaru 2y ago
I heart my mnt reform. Give these people money if you can spare some in exchange for interesting open hardware for running linux on you'd like to see keep improving and being iterated on.
- andypiper 2y ago
  +1 from me for supporting innovators and folks doing good things for the right reasons. I'm in a privileged position to be able to have this as an "extra" machine, and I want these folks to sustain and succeed.
MrThoughtful 2y ago
Talking about open hardware: Is there a tablet out there which runs Debian or Ubuntu? I don't mean it has to come with Linux in the first place. I can wipe Windows or whatever it comes with and install Debian myself. When I google around, I see people use some tablets with Linux based on special kernels they download from somewhere around the web. I would not want that. But a standard Debian or Ubuntu on a tablet would be great.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  I think the starlite 5 from https://starlabs.systems/ https://starlabs.systems/ is what you are looking for.
  - MrThoughtful 2y ago
    Hmm... 1.98 pounds for a 12.5 inch tablet. I was hoping for something more lightweight. The is new iPads are 1.3 pounds at 13 inch.
    - prmoustache 2y ago
      But the new iPads aren't running Linux ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You asked, I gave you the only option I knew besides the pinetabs.
    - Qwertious 2y ago
      It's an x86 laptop without the keyboard (clip-on keyboard is an optional extra). On the plus side, that means it's just as easy to install a different OS as any laptop. 1.98lb = 0.89811289 Kilogram
- ptman 2y ago
  https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineTab2 https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineTab2
  - MrThoughtful 2y ago
    I have not seen any reports about plain Debian running on the PineTab. Only Mobian, which is not what I am looking for.
amysox 2y ago
What I'd like to know is, how'd he get his device so quickly? I have one on order; I checked the Crowd Supply site, and it says they're shipping it August 31. (Earlier, it said "July 31," but they bumped it.)
- mntmn 2y ago
  There was an initial crowdfunding period first which we have almost completely fulfilled now (working on the last shipment of 68 devices atm). The devices you are buying now are from Crowd Supply's stock which we will start fulfilling to them in around 2 weeks.
notepad0x90 2y ago
1200 euros for such a small laptop is too much though, that's the price range of frame work and other similar laptops. You can get a large sized laptop from hp or dell with better hardware for roughly half that price. 700 euros should be the max price for the size and specs.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Sure, but these are not made in some asian sweatshop and you can replace everything yourself.
  - notepad0x90 2y ago
    I can replace everything with frame work (it is designed to be long term maintainable and replaceable), and I wouldn't dare discriminate on the people who are earning a living assembling laptops on the basis of the continent they reside in.
    - anonzzzies 2y ago
      I know hardware developed in asia that is not from sweatshops. It is more expensive though. It is fact that most mass produced hardware comes from mass assembly line low wage staff in asia under questionable circumstances. How is that discrimination? The frame work is more expensive than what the person I responded to said, but it is an example of how it should be. It wont be cheaper though.
      - notepad0x90 2y ago
        framework is expensive but for hardware specs it isn't crazy expensive, it's in the macbook range. I can't think of any other laptop that comes close to mnt's price range for the specs/size. I don't really understand what your problem with low wage staff is, I suspect we have a different understand of this. In my view, even having employment at all is a big deal in those regions and matters of local labor law should be dealt with by the local population. Ingesting cash into their country's economy is usually a good thing unless there are ethical concerns like slavery or forced labor which isn't the case here. Western labor laws were dismal at some point as well, child labor was rampant even in the US not even a hundred years ago, I hope other countries make progress at their own pace.
nfriedly 2y ago
That's really cool! I have a GPD win mini that I'm really happy with. It's not really comparable to this device, except that they're both pocket-sized computers. But in just that one regard alone they're fairly unique, and it is very nice to be able to just grab a computer (that's more functional than a smartphone) and stick it in my pocket.
upofadown 2y ago
Apparently these things support OpenBSD to some extent. Which is nice, OpenBSD on ARM tends not to be all that great if you want everything to work for you.

146 points by andypiper 2y ago

I got one of these recently as well, and have similar feelings. MNT's devices are not for everyone; you definitely need to be prepared for some tinkering, and some things are a little bit rough at first. But for a certain kind of person (and I count myself as one of those people) they're so much fun. It definitely has been scratching my tiny laptop itch. I think the first laptop I ever used was my dad's Libretto 70ct back in the day, and I've loved mini laptops ever since. I think they hit on the right input method with that small trackball too, it's very smooth! I also designed a custom back panel for mine, though unfortunately I missed a few details so I'm gonna have to get it re-made. But it's fun to have so many customization options! https://www.terracrypt.net/posts/custom-pocket-reform-lids-have-arrived.html https://www.terracrypt.net/posts/custom-pocket-reform-lids-h...

tra3 2y ago
I remember coveting the librettos! And then the slim sony laptops. These days I dont think there’s anything better than a MacBook Air though. What’s the use case for one of these? Data centers?
- ryukafalz 2y ago
  I can imagine them being useful in a datacenter, yeah. So far for my own use it's been nice for writing at my nearby coffee shop, because it takes up less space on the table than a full-sized laptop and the small screen seems to help avoid distractions (so far, haven't had it for that long, etc). And I don't travel long distances that often, but it probably fits better on train or airplane tray tables than a bigger laptop would too. I'm always worried the person in front of me will recline a bit when my laptop's in just the wrong spot and it'll shatter my screen from the top, haha.
- nextos 2y ago
  Travel is one use case. I loved the form factor of MBA 11 for ssh and local use of Mutt. I've been keeping an eye on MNT Pocket as a substitute. Reviews look great. The MBA 11 was nice because it fitted in an airplane tray really well.
  - tra3 2y ago
    There’s a thread about 11” Chromebooks: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41176578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41176578 Might be a good option.
    - nextos 2y ago
      Thanks, I know, I posted that thread :)
- wishfish 2y ago
  There's almost nothing in that Libretto size from the mainstream companies. But there are small companies making 8 and 10 inch laptops. GPD seems the most popular brand but there are several you can find on Amazon, Aliexpress, and Ebay. And then there's the Steam Deck, and variants from Asus and Lenovo. But with those you have to supply your own KB + stand. I guess they wouldn't quite count.
  - ryukafalz 2y ago
    Yeah, I had a GPD Micro PC prior to this, and I liked it... but the hinge snapped and replacing it seems like a pretty involved process. The build quality of the Pocket Reform feels much better, and it's a lot more straightforward to get inside and swap things out than with the GPD.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
andypiper 2y ago
that custom back panel is gorgeous! I would love to know more about how you got that made, as I now, um, need to do something similar...
- andypiper 2y ago
  you 100% did write about it, reading that now - where did you get it fabbed? tell me more :-)
  - ryukafalz 2y ago
    I got it fabbed at JLCPCB, though later realized that the stock panel had counterbores on its mounting holes so the screws would be flush. JLC can't do that, so I'm going to see if I can DIY that with the drill press at my local hackerspace before I get the next run made. I also accidentally got them made out of PCBs of the wrong thickness, and I forgot that the CPU module and wireless antennas would be in the top half so there's a full copper layer underneath that lettering which won't be great for wireless reception. Ah well, you live and learn :)
    - andypiper 2y ago
      Nice, thanks for the added detail. I'm taking notes! Might see if I can do something similar.
      - ryukafalz 2y ago
        I was inspired by this post on Crowd Supply for what it's worth! https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/pocket-reform/updates/on-open-source-hardware-community-building-and-making-pocket-reform-your-own https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/pocket-reform/updates/on-ope... Bit light on detail, but it got me a decent part of the way there.

geerlingguy 2y ago

Like with the MNT Reform (non-pocket), there are a few things that are aesthetically very pleasing (and fun, even), but in day-to-day use make it hard to adopt. On the original Reform, I had some issues adapting to it's slightly non-standard (at least for US English) key layout... and on this one, it has a very visually-pleasing key layout, but I can imagine unless it's your only keyboard, it will take a bit of mind-melding to type well on it. These MNT devices are—at least for now—not the type of things you'd consider to replace a Macbook or a slim laptop for portability and practicality/value. I still want one, lol

Klasiaster 2y ago
The latest keyboard version 3.0 is more standard. The swapped control vs caps lock position is something one can probably remap in software. The apparent lack of page-up/down and home/end keys would be more of a problem for me, though. https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform-keyboard-30 https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform-keyboard-30
- stonogo 2y ago
  The default firmware uses Hyper (the arrow pointing up and to the right) plus left/right for home/end and Hyper plus up/down for page up and page down. I'm not sure it's good enough either.
zamadatix 2y ago
Input was my #1 issue with any tiny portables. Apart from getting a "good feeling" keyboard, losing the ability to properly touch type really rains on the parade of how you can run a "real" OS on the devices. The Pocket Reform does slightly better than some in that you can try to act like it's a normal keyboard experience if you have a solid surface and can ignore the tiny and non standard layout. The other half of the input story is of course mouse input. Touch controls are just a no go for using a "real" OS on a tiny screen, trackpoints style nubs are mid tier, and (surprisingly) I found ones which reuse the built in gamepad buttons and sticks (E.g. the Ally) are best. It probably has more to do with having the extra physical buttons to both control the mouse and modify the control behavior. My #2 issue was always in realizing how disappointing it was to trade so much performance on top of the things still always being too large to comfortable fit in your actual pocket anyways. If you're already the type that enjoys carrying a portable game console with you then you might enjoy carrying one of the gaming focused mini portables since you can trade some minor clunkiness for more game library flexibility and raw power isn't a huge requirement to have a decent portable game library. If you're wanting to actually use it as a traditional computer... I just don't think I could ever see the device class being more than a novelty which ends up on a shelf after 7 uses for 95% of people that go and buy one. It's cool this one is open hardware and focused on trying to provide a good open software experience but it does make all of the above even a bit rougher (can't help but recoil that every post about the Pocket Reform has a picture of the user at a text terminal).

butterisgood 2y ago

Too small to be practical for me. I can feel my RSI kicking in right away with this form factor. But I will say the MNT Reform stuff is pretty amazing all-around! I just can't anymore with most keyboards after a good 34 years keyboarding. To the younger crowd out there - stretch... Play guitar or something. It helps!

anonzzzies 2y ago
It seems some people have it and some don't; I have been keyboarding now for 43 years almost every day and have never even had a twinge. It screwed my health (sitting for decades as computers are my work and also my hobby) for a bit, but never had anything with my hands, fingers, neck or etc. Not sure how it works. My parents did put me on a 10 finger typing course when I was 6; maybe that was it? I typed for years on a GPD pocket 1 as primary work machine (I had to travel a lot) until my eyesight didn't work anymore on that tiny screen.
- Evidlo 2y ago
  What problems did it cause for you and how did you fix it?

megasquid 2y ago

Typing this from an MNT Reform with a CM4 chip in it. Don't have a Pocket Reform yet, but just want to chime in and say that I love what the MNT team is doing. With the new rk3588 SOM it's possible to have 8 cores and 32 gigs of RAM can't recommend their devices enough. Have a second Reform with an LS1028A. Deeply want them to continue to succeed. So refreshing to have a device that is fully transparent and upgrade-able over time. Waiting for their new server rack mounted form factor to come out so I can put my old SOMs to use in my homelab.

pengaru 2y ago

I heart my mnt reform. Give these people money if you can spare some in exchange for interesting open hardware for running linux on you'd like to see keep improving and being iterated on.

andypiper 2y ago
+1 from me for supporting innovators and folks doing good things for the right reasons. I'm in a privileged position to be able to have this as an "extra" machine, and I want these folks to sustain and succeed.

MrThoughtful 2y ago

Talking about open hardware: Is there a tablet out there which runs Debian or Ubuntu? I don't mean it has to come with Linux in the first place. I can wipe Windows or whatever it comes with and install Debian myself. When I google around, I see people use some tablets with Linux based on special kernels they download from somewhere around the web. I would not want that. But a standard Debian or Ubuntu on a tablet would be great.

prmoustache 2y ago
I think the starlite 5 from https://starlabs.systems/ https://starlabs.systems/ is what you are looking for.
- MrThoughtful 2y ago
  Hmm... 1.98 pounds for a 12.5 inch tablet. I was hoping for something more lightweight. The is new iPads are 1.3 pounds at 13 inch.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    But the new iPads aren't running Linux ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You asked, I gave you the only option I knew besides the pinetabs.
  - Qwertious 2y ago
    It's an x86 laptop without the keyboard (clip-on keyboard is an optional extra). On the plus side, that means it's just as easy to install a different OS as any laptop. 1.98lb = 0.89811289 Kilogram
ptman 2y ago
https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineTab2 https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/PineTab2
- MrThoughtful 2y ago
  I have not seen any reports about plain Debian running on the PineTab. Only Mobian, which is not what I am looking for.

amysox 2y ago

What I'd like to know is, how'd he get his device so quickly? I have one on order; I checked the Crowd Supply site, and it says they're shipping it August 31. (Earlier, it said "July 31," but they bumped it.)

mntmn 2y ago
There was an initial crowdfunding period first which we have almost completely fulfilled now (working on the last shipment of 68 devices atm). The devices you are buying now are from Crowd Supply's stock which we will start fulfilling to them in around 2 weeks.

notepad0x90 2y ago

1200 euros for such a small laptop is too much though, that's the price range of frame work and other similar laptops. You can get a large sized laptop from hp or dell with better hardware for roughly half that price. 700 euros should be the max price for the size and specs.

anonzzzies 2y ago
Sure, but these are not made in some asian sweatshop and you can replace everything yourself.
- notepad0x90 2y ago
  I can replace everything with frame work (it is designed to be long term maintainable and replaceable), and I wouldn't dare discriminate on the people who are earning a living assembling laptops on the basis of the continent they reside in.
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    I know hardware developed in asia that is not from sweatshops. It is more expensive though. It is fact that most mass produced hardware comes from mass assembly line low wage staff in asia under questionable circumstances. How is that discrimination? The frame work is more expensive than what the person I responded to said, but it is an example of how it should be. It wont be cheaper though.
    - notepad0x90 2y ago
      framework is expensive but for hardware specs it isn't crazy expensive, it's in the macbook range. I can't think of any other laptop that comes close to mnt's price range for the specs/size. I don't really understand what your problem with low wage staff is, I suspect we have a different understand of this. In my view, even having employment at all is a big deal in those regions and matters of local labor law should be dealt with by the local population. Ingesting cash into their country's economy is usually a good thing unless there are ethical concerns like slavery or forced labor which isn't the case here. Western labor laws were dismal at some point as well, child labor was rampant even in the US not even a hundred years ago, I hope other countries make progress at their own pace.

nfriedly 2y ago

That's really cool! I have a GPD win mini that I'm really happy with. It's not really comparable to this device, except that they're both pocket-sized computers. But in just that one regard alone they're fairly unique, and it is very nice to be able to just grab a computer (that's more functional than a smartphone) and stick it in my pocket.

upofadown 2y ago

Apparently these things support OpenBSD to some extent. Which is nice, OpenBSD on ARM tends not to be all that great if you want everything to work for you.