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A large part of it is the transition from small local businesses to faceless corporate chains. I care if my local, family-run pharmacy gets robbed. If someone

A large part of it is the transition from small local businesses to faceless corporate chains. I care if my local, family-run pharmacy gets robbed. If someone steals from some corporate behemoth, one that treats me like a criminal regardless of whether I steal from them or not, well, what do I care?

monero-xmr 2y ago
That's the exact problem. You only seem to care about property rights if the direct owner is your neighbor. I simply find stealing to be wrong. The societal restrictions and penalties on theft are ancient. If can't all agree that stealing is wrong, what hope does society have
steveBK123 2y ago
Selective enforcement of law based on moral preferences leads to bad places. What if its a local owner but you met the guy and think he is a jerk? What if he votes differently than you like? Do you think the various groups committing robbery care who owns the store, and if so, care in the same way as you? Would they stop if the pharmacy became locally owned? Would they give up shoplifting if there were no big box stores nearby?
- underlipton 2y ago
  >Selective enforcement of law based on moral preferences leads to bad places. Maybe go after wage theft and employment discrimination? It's strange to me that people think that the source of "low trust" is the people with rather less power in society, versus the people with more. Most people begin life more than willing to trust. It's when someone who is supposed to be looking out for them betrays that trust that they become embittered.
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    Go after those too, yes! That's the idea.
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    It's strange that your immediate reaction to "I don't think some retail stores pay their employees enough" is to then decide "Everyone should be able to steal from those stores without penalty"
    - dml2135 2y ago
      Seeking to explain why people steal from these stores is not the same as saying that everyone should be able to.
    - underlipton 2y ago
      Actually, my immediate reaction was to, "Selective enforcement of law based on moral preferences leads to bad places," where the implication was that petty theft is the most pressing matter wrt the deleterious social effects of lacking law enforcement. That reaction was, essentially, "That would be a mismanagement of resources." Which it is. Instances of wage theft dwarfs petty theft (and most other types of theft, combined). Employment discrimination - whether racial/ethnic, sexual, or nepotistic in nature - is a massive contributor to both the desperate financial situations and low trust environments that are a major part of why people are willing to steal. My goal is to actually solve the problem, not engage in Two Minutes Hate.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  I'm not the one enforcing laws, I'm a rando. Why aren't the cops doing their jobs? Nationally, clearance rates are abysmally low. Everyone knows calling the cops for personal theft is useless. Why aren't they doing their job? And don't point to those cops in California claiming that it was a lax DA, as that doesn't explain the abysmal clearance rates in the rest of the nation, including in states with DAs who enthusiastically do their job, to a fault. The DA in California does not explain why the cops in my state are utterly incompetent. Cops don't want to do their jobs
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    Omitting the long lead up story, I was forwarded the eBay listing for my iPhone that had been stolen. It even had the IMEI on the listing. Looked at the guy's profile (and I had his name and address, as he'd sold my phone to someone who was annoyed that it was locked) and it was blindingly obvious that it was all stolen goods: 50+ cell phones, "no charger", "no accessories", some even flagged as locked. Another 50+ Macbooks - also "no chargers", "no accessories". Called my local PD (non-emergency) as I'd filed a police report. Told them what I'd found. PD: Well, he probably didn't steal them himself... Me: I'm fairly sure that selling stolen goods is still a crime? PD: ... Me: ... My tax dollars, hard at work.
- dml2135 2y ago
  I'm not advocating for selective enforcement of the law, was just describing my personal feelings. I brought it up mainly because I do think it informs this question. > Do you think the various groups committing robbery care who owns the store, and if so, care in the same way as you? In the same way as me -- no, probably not. But does the owner of the store matter to groups committing robbery? I wouldn't be so confident that it does not. I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I'd guess that loss to robbery among chain stores is higher than among mom-and-pop businesses.

monero-xmr 2y ago

That's the exact problem. You only seem to care about property rights if the direct owner is your neighbor. I simply find stealing to be wrong. The societal restrictions and penalties on theft are ancient. If can't all agree that stealing is wrong, what hope does society have

steveBK123 2y ago

Selective enforcement of law based on moral preferences leads to bad places. What if its a local owner but you met the guy and think he is a jerk? What if he votes differently than you like? Do you think the various groups committing robbery care who owns the store, and if so, care in the same way as you? Would they stop if the pharmacy became locally owned? Would they give up shoplifting if there were no big box stores nearby?

underlipton 2y ago
>Selective enforcement of law based on moral preferences leads to bad places. Maybe go after wage theft and employment discrimination? It's strange to me that people think that the source of "low trust" is the people with rather less power in society, versus the people with more. Most people begin life more than willing to trust. It's when someone who is supposed to be looking out for them betrays that trust that they become embittered.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  Go after those too, yes! That's the idea.
- monero-xmr 2y ago
  It's strange that your immediate reaction to "I don't think some retail stores pay their employees enough" is to then decide "Everyone should be able to steal from those stores without penalty"
  - dml2135 2y ago
    Seeking to explain why people steal from these stores is not the same as saying that everyone should be able to.
  - underlipton 2y ago
    Actually, my immediate reaction was to, "Selective enforcement of law based on moral preferences leads to bad places," where the implication was that petty theft is the most pressing matter wrt the deleterious social effects of lacking law enforcement. That reaction was, essentially, "That would be a mismanagement of resources." Which it is. Instances of wage theft dwarfs petty theft (and most other types of theft, combined). Employment discrimination - whether racial/ethnic, sexual, or nepotistic in nature - is a massive contributor to both the desperate financial situations and low trust environments that are a major part of why people are willing to steal. My goal is to actually solve the problem, not engage in Two Minutes Hate.
mrguyorama 2y ago
I'm not the one enforcing laws, I'm a rando. Why aren't the cops doing their jobs? Nationally, clearance rates are abysmally low. Everyone knows calling the cops for personal theft is useless. Why aren't they doing their job? And don't point to those cops in California claiming that it was a lax DA, as that doesn't explain the abysmal clearance rates in the rest of the nation, including in states with DAs who enthusiastically do their job, to a fault. The DA in California does not explain why the cops in my state are utterly incompetent. Cops don't want to do their jobs
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Omitting the long lead up story, I was forwarded the eBay listing for my iPhone that had been stolen. It even had the IMEI on the listing. Looked at the guy's profile (and I had his name and address, as he'd sold my phone to someone who was annoyed that it was locked) and it was blindingly obvious that it was all stolen goods: 50+ cell phones, "no charger", "no accessories", some even flagged as locked. Another 50+ Macbooks - also "no chargers", "no accessories". Called my local PD (non-emergency) as I'd filed a police report. Told them what I'd found. PD: Well, he probably didn't steal them himself... Me: I'm fairly sure that selling stolen goods is still a crime? PD: ... Me: ... My tax dollars, hard at work.
dml2135 2y ago
I'm not advocating for selective enforcement of the law, was just describing my personal feelings. I brought it up mainly because I do think it informs this question. > Do you think the various groups committing robbery care who owns the store, and if so, care in the same way as you? In the same way as me -- no, probably not. But does the owner of the store matter to groups committing robbery? I wouldn't be so confident that it does not. I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I'd guess that loss to robbery among chain stores is higher than among mom-and-pop businesses.