6 ms·

As someone who hates cooking, I don't understand the argument. Why would I care about whether something is a "human thing" or not? "Crime against culture" means

by Kiro 2y ago

As someone who hates cooking, I don't understand the argument. Why would I care about whether something is a "human thing" or not? "Crime against culture" means nothing and could be said about anything.

keiferski 2y ago
A lot of words have been written about the role of food in human history and culture. Here’s one from the OP’s blog: https://jakeseliger.com/2024/02/26/food-and-friends-part-i-food-is-social-life/ https://jakeseliger.com/2024/02/26/food-and-friends-part-i-f... The argument is: cooking and eating has been a fundamental human activity for millennia, one that brings people together, transmits culture, language, etc. - and to optimize it away as a problem is to disregard something very important about being a human being.
- Kiro 2y ago
  I understand the importance historically but I don't agree that it's something very important about being a human being. Someone trying to impose that on me is as unconvincing as a religious person trying to convert me. Give me practical arguments. When I eat I want to do it alone, which is something you highlighted in your original comment, but hearing you now it's all about to the social aspects. I'm not interested in that. If I want to socialize there are far better venues for me personally. I find eating out with other people a lose-lose. The food distracts me from the conversation but the conversation distracts me from the food, and all of a sudden it's gone before I even had the chance to reflect on the taste.
  - frutiger 2y ago
    > The food distracts me from the conversation but the conversation distracts me from the food, and all of a sudden it's gone before I even had the chance to reflect on the taste. Chew carefully. Eat slowly. Sip water. Your digestive system will thank you for it.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    A few points: 1. History and evolution are ongoing things. They aren’t “done” and in the past. Today, right now, people use food as an important part of their culture, whether that be immigrant parents teaching their kids recipes from their home culture, a brother making food for his dying sibling (as in the link), or two friends having dinner. And that’s only on the consumption side - not to mention the entire production industrial complex that employs millions of people globally to make and prepare food - and has done so for thousands of years. “Food gatherer and preparer" probably has a claim to being the oldest profession. Food is so ingrained in human history and culture it’s basically impossible to imagine civilization without it. Which was my point about it being a human thing. 2. Your mention of religion is actually helpful too, because I think a similar attitude is prevalent when discussing religious beliefs: “That was a historical thing and it doesn’t have much effect on anything today.” Which is very much not the case; everything in the contemporary world has been shaped by religious beliefs, from the concept of the Self, individualism, the structure of political systems, democracy, universalism, on and on. Modernity is in no way a fresh beginning or clean slate in which the past doesn’t apply. That doesn’t mean you need to believe in XYZ religion today, but to deny that it has any contemporary relevance is just incorrect. 3. On the evolutionary front, the fact is that you evolved to eat in a group - the possibility of someone sitting alone eating a meal made by others basically didn’t exist until a century ago. So it formed who you are today, whether you like it or not. 4. Personally, I like to cook alone. It requires a focused approach that prevents you from scrolling TikTok or being distracted by innumerable other things. I also like to cook foods that remind me of my origins – for example, I like making pierogi, as I'm Polish and from the region where a certain type of pierogi are from. I make them using the rolling pin that was my late Polish grandma's, which also makes it a special experience. Food culture doesn't need to a social thing at all. I don’t want to assume what your opinion is but it seems to be something like, "None of that matters, all that matters is that it tastes good, comes in ready-to-eat packaging, and can be eaten alone." Which seems to me like the most depressing, reductive approach possible to something with so much cultural significance and history. Do you think the same thing about art or architecture? Literature? Films? This being HN; I’m gonna guess you’re a technical person, and so you might gain more of an appreciation for food by watching some YouTube videos on chefs working. The skill and craftsmanship can be truly impressive.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    > I understand the importance historically but I don't agree that it's something very important about being a human being. Someone trying to impose that on me is as unconvincing as a religious person trying to convert me. Give me practical arguments. What one values, or does not value, in life is a fundamentally impractical subject. IMO you're asking for the impossible.
  - smallest-number 2y ago
    It should be remembered that most aspects of culture developed because they have a purpose. In the case of cooking and eating good food, there are definitely practical benefits, largely psychological. One part of it is about directing attention. If you cook for yourself, you pay more attention to what you're putting into your body, and in learning how different flavors come together you learn intuitions about taste and aesthetics. In directing your attention like this, cooking can also serve as a kind of meditation / mindfulness practice. In knowing how to cook, you become able to cook for others, which is a very common way for people to connect. If a loved one is sick, making soup for them can make them feel loved and cared for, just as it can make you feel good about putting in effort to help them feel better; especially when it comes to things that you just have to wait out, like flu, something like this is an excellent way of maintaining a connection. Conversely, in knowing how much effort it takes to make a good meal you become more appreciative of meals others make for you. And finally, in cooking with someone else you learn about them and about yourself, about subtle differences that you might not have encountered otherwise. In solving a relatively easy, low-stakes problem together, you gain a sense of closeness without much risk or cost. Overall, cooking is a practice centered on ideas that are underappreciated by people too engrossed in "hustle culture" etc, so it's important to have it as a tool in today's world. Of course, everything that it provides can be found elsewhere, but these are the reasons it's so deeply ingrained in human culture. I think you would also struggle to find other things that give you all of the above, and more that I didn't go into, for so little investment. It's not that cooking makes you human or something, but cooking does help you to connect with a lot of the deeper parts of yourself that do.
  - itsoktocry 2y ago
    >but I don't agree that it's something very important about being a human being You don't understand that the preparation of food is important to being a human being? Both physiologically and socially? Across every culture on the planet? >Someone trying to impose that on me is as unconvincing as a religious person trying to convert me. Give me practical arguments. Nobody is imposing anything on you. Nobody cares to convince you. Go ahead and eat your meals alone.
shiroiushi 2y ago
You don't have to enjoy cooking to enjoy a well-made meal. That's why restaurants exist, after all. Lots of people are perfectly happy to let someone else do the hard work in the kitchen. If you actually don't enjoy good food, then considering how important culinary arts have been to humans for all of recorded history, I'd say there's something wrong with you.
- Kiro 2y ago
  I enjoy good food but that's it. I don't assign a higher purpose to it. A lot of things that were important historically are now gone.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    If you enjoy eating "good food" (whatever you define that as, since it depends on your taste), that's normal for a human. You don't have to attach a "higher purpose" to it, but it's something that's been important to humans since forever. We have taste buds for a reason, and eating tasty food isn't going to fall out of favor ever, unless humans somehow change into something non-human.
- nakeru 2y ago
  That last sentence feels like a personal attack. I'm not sure why this is so important to you. You write about recorded history, but there is a vast majority of humans who has never written or at least not about food, so I don't know, maybe food hasn't always been important for everyone, we don't really know. Nowadays, we also have the stress of a capitalist system to deal with, plus processed food we eat since our childhood, which for a lot of people "break" food for them, since they get used to the sugar rush, and normal food tasted "boring" or "bland". What I mean is, I know plenty of well adjusted people who don't enjoy "good food", and that's OK.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    I probably didn't word it that well; I meant that if you don't enjoy eating food that you like the taste of, there's something wrong with you. It's a normal human thing to like to eat, and to eat things you think are tasty. Unfortunately, modern low-quality unhealthy foods are engineered to be tasty, but this doesn't mean there's something seriously wrong with people who like them. I didn't mean "good food" as only high-quality, nutritious food, just something you like to eat and enjoy eating, even if it isn't that healthy. The people who really have something wrong with them here are those who actually don't enjoy eating any food, and see it strictly as a biologically-necessary chore. Those are the people who seem to be attracted to Soylent. Yes, I really do think there's something wrong with these people.
throwanem 2y ago
You are also a "human thing." As such, it is wise to attend what is of importance to other such, whether or not you would natively concern yourself with those aspects of life, at least if you care to have your life involve other humans in a significant and enduring way.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
> Why would I care about whether something is a "human thing" or not? I can't say why "you" care. That's part of the human element itself, the awareness and ability to reject what may have been thousands of years of evolution. e.g. that cooked meat tastes better to suggest that it's better to cook meat than eat it raw. That salting meat acts a preservative that happens to taste good, while rotting meat smells putrid. Now as for why "I" care: Culture is identity, and identity is one of the key factors of sentience. Otherwise what makes us different from a beast or a robot? Food is one of the oldest cultural values and can say a lot about personal, familial, and societal values at that place and time. It gives legacy and a sense of identity. An identity of optimized bland food with all nutrional substenance speaks to a world in ruin, a world with so little leisure that cooking is an extreme luxury, if not a thing of the past for that society. Unless we're exploring the cosmos, that's not really a message I'd want to send of my time.

by Kiro 2y ago

keiferski 2y ago

A lot of words have been written about the role of food in human history and culture. Here’s one from the OP’s blog: https://jakeseliger.com/2024/02/26/food-and-friends-part-i-food-is-social-life/ https://jakeseliger.com/2024/02/26/food-and-friends-part-i-f... The argument is: cooking and eating has been a fundamental human activity for millennia, one that brings people together, transmits culture, language, etc. - and to optimize it away as a problem is to disregard something very important about being a human being.

Kiro 2y ago
I understand the importance historically but I don't agree that it's something very important about being a human being. Someone trying to impose that on me is as unconvincing as a religious person trying to convert me. Give me practical arguments. When I eat I want to do it alone, which is something you highlighted in your original comment, but hearing you now it's all about to the social aspects. I'm not interested in that. If I want to socialize there are far better venues for me personally. I find eating out with other people a lose-lose. The food distracts me from the conversation but the conversation distracts me from the food, and all of a sudden it's gone before I even had the chance to reflect on the taste.
- frutiger 2y ago
  > The food distracts me from the conversation but the conversation distracts me from the food, and all of a sudden it's gone before I even had the chance to reflect on the taste. Chew carefully. Eat slowly. Sip water. Your digestive system will thank you for it.
- keiferski 2y ago
  A few points: 1. History and evolution are ongoing things. They aren’t “done” and in the past. Today, right now, people use food as an important part of their culture, whether that be immigrant parents teaching their kids recipes from their home culture, a brother making food for his dying sibling (as in the link), or two friends having dinner. And that’s only on the consumption side - not to mention the entire production industrial complex that employs millions of people globally to make and prepare food - and has done so for thousands of years. “Food gatherer and preparer" probably has a claim to being the oldest profession. Food is so ingrained in human history and culture it’s basically impossible to imagine civilization without it. Which was my point about it being a human thing. 2. Your mention of religion is actually helpful too, because I think a similar attitude is prevalent when discussing religious beliefs: “That was a historical thing and it doesn’t have much effect on anything today.” Which is very much not the case; everything in the contemporary world has been shaped by religious beliefs, from the concept of the Self, individualism, the structure of political systems, democracy, universalism, on and on. Modernity is in no way a fresh beginning or clean slate in which the past doesn’t apply. That doesn’t mean you need to believe in XYZ religion today, but to deny that it has any contemporary relevance is just incorrect. 3. On the evolutionary front, the fact is that you evolved to eat in a group - the possibility of someone sitting alone eating a meal made by others basically didn’t exist until a century ago. So it formed who you are today, whether you like it or not. 4. Personally, I like to cook alone. It requires a focused approach that prevents you from scrolling TikTok or being distracted by innumerable other things. I also like to cook foods that remind me of my origins – for example, I like making pierogi, as I'm Polish and from the region where a certain type of pierogi are from. I make them using the rolling pin that was my late Polish grandma's, which also makes it a special experience. Food culture doesn't need to a social thing at all. I don’t want to assume what your opinion is but it seems to be something like, "None of that matters, all that matters is that it tastes good, comes in ready-to-eat packaging, and can be eaten alone." Which seems to me like the most depressing, reductive approach possible to something with so much cultural significance and history. Do you think the same thing about art or architecture? Literature? Films? This being HN; I’m gonna guess you’re a technical person, and so you might gain more of an appreciation for food by watching some YouTube videos on chefs working. The skill and craftsmanship can be truly impressive.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  > I understand the importance historically but I don't agree that it's something very important about being a human being. Someone trying to impose that on me is as unconvincing as a religious person trying to convert me. Give me practical arguments. What one values, or does not value, in life is a fundamentally impractical subject. IMO you're asking for the impossible.
- smallest-number 2y ago
  It should be remembered that most aspects of culture developed because they have a purpose. In the case of cooking and eating good food, there are definitely practical benefits, largely psychological. One part of it is about directing attention. If you cook for yourself, you pay more attention to what you're putting into your body, and in learning how different flavors come together you learn intuitions about taste and aesthetics. In directing your attention like this, cooking can also serve as a kind of meditation / mindfulness practice. In knowing how to cook, you become able to cook for others, which is a very common way for people to connect. If a loved one is sick, making soup for them can make them feel loved and cared for, just as it can make you feel good about putting in effort to help them feel better; especially when it comes to things that you just have to wait out, like flu, something like this is an excellent way of maintaining a connection. Conversely, in knowing how much effort it takes to make a good meal you become more appreciative of meals others make for you. And finally, in cooking with someone else you learn about them and about yourself, about subtle differences that you might not have encountered otherwise. In solving a relatively easy, low-stakes problem together, you gain a sense of closeness without much risk or cost. Overall, cooking is a practice centered on ideas that are underappreciated by people too engrossed in "hustle culture" etc, so it's important to have it as a tool in today's world. Of course, everything that it provides can be found elsewhere, but these are the reasons it's so deeply ingrained in human culture. I think you would also struggle to find other things that give you all of the above, and more that I didn't go into, for so little investment. It's not that cooking makes you human or something, but cooking does help you to connect with a lot of the deeper parts of yourself that do.
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >but I don't agree that it's something very important about being a human being You don't understand that the preparation of food is important to being a human being? Both physiologically and socially? Across every culture on the planet? >Someone trying to impose that on me is as unconvincing as a religious person trying to convert me. Give me practical arguments. Nobody is imposing anything on you. Nobody cares to convince you. Go ahead and eat your meals alone.

shiroiushi 2y ago

You don't have to enjoy cooking to enjoy a well-made meal. That's why restaurants exist, after all. Lots of people are perfectly happy to let someone else do the hard work in the kitchen. If you actually don't enjoy good food, then considering how important culinary arts have been to humans for all of recorded history, I'd say there's something wrong with you.

Kiro 2y ago
I enjoy good food but that's it. I don't assign a higher purpose to it. A lot of things that were important historically are now gone.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  If you enjoy eating "good food" (whatever you define that as, since it depends on your taste), that's normal for a human. You don't have to attach a "higher purpose" to it, but it's something that's been important to humans since forever. We have taste buds for a reason, and eating tasty food isn't going to fall out of favor ever, unless humans somehow change into something non-human.
nakeru 2y ago
That last sentence feels like a personal attack. I'm not sure why this is so important to you. You write about recorded history, but there is a vast majority of humans who has never written or at least not about food, so I don't know, maybe food hasn't always been important for everyone, we don't really know. Nowadays, we also have the stress of a capitalist system to deal with, plus processed food we eat since our childhood, which for a lot of people "break" food for them, since they get used to the sugar rush, and normal food tasted "boring" or "bland". What I mean is, I know plenty of well adjusted people who don't enjoy "good food", and that's OK.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  I probably didn't word it that well; I meant that if you don't enjoy eating food that you like the taste of, there's something wrong with you. It's a normal human thing to like to eat, and to eat things you think are tasty. Unfortunately, modern low-quality unhealthy foods are engineered to be tasty, but this doesn't mean there's something seriously wrong with people who like them. I didn't mean "good food" as only high-quality, nutritious food, just something you like to eat and enjoy eating, even if it isn't that healthy. The people who really have something wrong with them here are those who actually don't enjoy eating any food, and see it strictly as a biologically-necessary chore. Those are the people who seem to be attracted to Soylent. Yes, I really do think there's something wrong with these people.

throwanem 2y ago

You are also a "human thing." As such, it is wise to attend what is of importance to other such, whether or not you would natively concern yourself with those aspects of life, at least if you care to have your life involve other humans in a significant and enduring way.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

> Why would I care about whether something is a "human thing" or not? I can't say why "you" care. That's part of the human element itself, the awareness and ability to reject what may have been thousands of years of evolution. e.g. that cooked meat tastes better to suggest that it's better to cook meat than eat it raw. That salting meat acts a preservative that happens to taste good, while rotting meat smells putrid. Now as for why "I" care: Culture is identity, and identity is one of the key factors of sentience. Otherwise what makes us different from a beast or a robot? Food is one of the oldest cultural values and can say a lot about personal, familial, and societal values at that place and time. It gives legacy and a sense of identity. An identity of optimized bland food with all nutrional substenance speaks to a world in ruin, a world with so little leisure that cooking is an extreme luxury, if not a thing of the past for that society. Unless we're exploring the cosmos, that's not really a message I'd want to send of my time.