4 ms·

It’s called out that Google pays Mozilla to have Google be the default search engine in Firefox. I worry this ruling will lead to Google ceasing those payments,

by jl6 2y ago

It’s called out that Google pays Mozilla to have Google be the default search engine in Firefox. I worry this ruling will lead to Google ceasing those payments, effectively killing Mozilla as a going concern.

hrpnk 2y ago
Maybe they will allow a level-playing field and allow bids like in a marketplace?
- warkdarrior 2y ago
  Why would anyone bid for being the search engine in a browser with <4% market share and falling? Everybody will want to be on iPhone/Safari, Android/Chrome, and Windows/Chrome or Edge.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    And at least 50% of this 4% (myself included) use ad blockers. Well, too bad Mozilla put itself in this situation. If it doesn't kill it, it will make it stronger.
  - uabstraction 2y ago
    4 percent of the browser market is still well over a hundred million users.
    - ImJamal 2y ago
      These default search deals are only on new installs though. How often will those users reinstall Firefox?
      - asadotzler 2y ago
        No. You are wrong, either confused or lying. These deals are a revenue share for ad engagement on search results. Stop the lying.
        ImJamal 2y ago
        I think you are replying to the wrong person? If I set my search engine to DDG and Firefox has a deal with Google, then my browser is going to change my search engine to Google? Of course not. When you install Firefox it defaults to Google. In the past when Firefox had a deal with Yahoo it defaulted to Yahoo. Are you suggesting that is incorrect because all of that happened?
layer8 2y ago
Or maybe Mozilla will focus more on Firefox again.
- mozempthrowaway 2y ago
  No we won’t. We all knew this gravy train was coming to an end. In terms of revenue it’s ~500M per year/~80-something %. Once this stops, there’s no way for us to keep funding operations at the level they’re at.
  - layer8 2y ago
    You don’t need $500M per year, by far, to continue developing a web browser. Mozilla is conducting all sorts of operations that have little to do with that core task.
  - alt227 2y ago
    > there’s no way for us to keep funding operations at the level they’re at Good, hopefuilly Mozilla uses this as a chance to strip down all extraneous activities and focus on the core product again. if $500m is 80% of operating costs, $100m per year sounds fine enough to continue to develop a decent browser.
  - mrweasel 2y ago
    Wikimedia is often criticized for asking for donations, while having millions in the bank, but this is exactly why. Mozilla should have taken all the money they could from Google and others, focused on Firefox and MDN (and perhaps Thunderbird) and just continuously saved and invested whatever was left. If/when donation dry up, Wikimedia will hopefully have saved up enough to fund Wikipedia for decades. Once Mozillas income is gone, there's no backup. Mozilla spend all the money they could each fiscal year (I don't actually know, I didn't check their budgets), trying to build products that would fund the project into the future. It's just that none of those projects made much sense, nor where they ever going to bring the the amount of money required, which really seems obvious from the outside. I can see the VPN maybe bringing in a bit of money, but no where near enough.
jacooper 2y ago
And nothing of value will be lost. Mozilla is not an alternative to Google, never was. It's more of a controlled opposition.
summerlight 2y ago
Mozilla is effectively being subsidized by Google for the sake of an illusion of browser competitions. If the remedy enforces "a reasonable level of bid" for these kinds of auctions, Mozilla may go bankrupt within 5 years. I hope the court won't include Mozilla in scope since it doesn't really make a dent on the market dominance.
- troad 2y ago
  > Mozilla is effectively being subsidized by Google for the sake of an illusion of browser competitions. If the remedy enforces "a reasonable level of bid" for these kinds of auctions, Mozilla may go bankrupt within 5 years. I hope the court won't include Mozilla in scope since it doesn't really make a dent on the market dominance. Maybe the death of Mozilla, the family of corporate entities, could breathe new life into Firefox, the open source browser. They haven't exactly been great stewards for the last few years. I'm not exactly sure how those vast amounts of money from Google have translated into much tangible progress for the browser.
  - Zuiii 2y ago
    This. Mozilla is a giant dead tree in the middle of the forest depriving any saplings from the sunlight needed for them to take its place. If the corporation can't exist without Google funding, then it's effectively a department of Google and should be killed off so that other _independent_ orgs take its place.
    - account42 2y ago
      Exactly. Mozilla CEO salaries might require the Google deal but development of Firefox or alternative browsers does not. Mozilla Corporation was a mistake and I look forward to a time where the leading open browser is developed as a public good again instead of as a product used to sell ads.
ricardo81 2y ago
Maybe browsers don't need to be free (or we could have the freedom to pay to avoid potential conflicts of interest).
account42 2y ago
You worry about that? I'm hoping for it!

by jl6 2y ago

hrpnk 2y ago

Maybe they will allow a level-playing field and allow bids like in a marketplace?

warkdarrior 2y ago
Why would anyone bid for being the search engine in a browser with <4% market share and falling? Everybody will want to be on iPhone/Safari, Android/Chrome, and Windows/Chrome or Edge.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  And at least 50% of this 4% (myself included) use ad blockers. Well, too bad Mozilla put itself in this situation. If it doesn't kill it, it will make it stronger.
- uabstraction 2y ago
  4 percent of the browser market is still well over a hundred million users.
  - ImJamal 2y ago
    These default search deals are only on new installs though. How often will those users reinstall Firefox?
    - asadotzler 2y ago
      No. You are wrong, either confused or lying. These deals are a revenue share for ad engagement on search results. Stop the lying.
      - ImJamal 2y ago
        I think you are replying to the wrong person? If I set my search engine to DDG and Firefox has a deal with Google, then my browser is going to change my search engine to Google? Of course not. When you install Firefox it defaults to Google. In the past when Firefox had a deal with Yahoo it defaulted to Yahoo. Are you suggesting that is incorrect because all of that happened?

layer8 2y ago

Or maybe Mozilla will focus more on Firefox again.

mozempthrowaway 2y ago
No we won’t. We all knew this gravy train was coming to an end. In terms of revenue it’s ~500M per year/~80-something %. Once this stops, there’s no way for us to keep funding operations at the level they’re at.
- layer8 2y ago
  You don’t need $500M per year, by far, to continue developing a web browser. Mozilla is conducting all sorts of operations that have little to do with that core task.
- alt227 2y ago
  > there’s no way for us to keep funding operations at the level they’re at Good, hopefuilly Mozilla uses this as a chance to strip down all extraneous activities and focus on the core product again. if $500m is 80% of operating costs, $100m per year sounds fine enough to continue to develop a decent browser.
- mrweasel 2y ago
  Wikimedia is often criticized for asking for donations, while having millions in the bank, but this is exactly why. Mozilla should have taken all the money they could from Google and others, focused on Firefox and MDN (and perhaps Thunderbird) and just continuously saved and invested whatever was left. If/when donation dry up, Wikimedia will hopefully have saved up enough to fund Wikipedia for decades. Once Mozillas income is gone, there's no backup. Mozilla spend all the money they could each fiscal year (I don't actually know, I didn't check their budgets), trying to build products that would fund the project into the future. It's just that none of those projects made much sense, nor where they ever going to bring the the amount of money required, which really seems obvious from the outside. I can see the VPN maybe bringing in a bit of money, but no where near enough.

jacooper 2y ago

And nothing of value will be lost. Mozilla is not an alternative to Google, never was. It's more of a controlled opposition.

summerlight 2y ago

Mozilla is effectively being subsidized by Google for the sake of an illusion of browser competitions. If the remedy enforces "a reasonable level of bid" for these kinds of auctions, Mozilla may go bankrupt within 5 years. I hope the court won't include Mozilla in scope since it doesn't really make a dent on the market dominance.

troad 2y ago
> Mozilla is effectively being subsidized by Google for the sake of an illusion of browser competitions. If the remedy enforces "a reasonable level of bid" for these kinds of auctions, Mozilla may go bankrupt within 5 years. I hope the court won't include Mozilla in scope since it doesn't really make a dent on the market dominance. Maybe the death of Mozilla, the family of corporate entities, could breathe new life into Firefox, the open source browser. They haven't exactly been great stewards for the last few years. I'm not exactly sure how those vast amounts of money from Google have translated into much tangible progress for the browser.
- Zuiii 2y ago
  This. Mozilla is a giant dead tree in the middle of the forest depriving any saplings from the sunlight needed for them to take its place. If the corporation can't exist without Google funding, then it's effectively a department of Google and should be killed off so that other _independent_ orgs take its place.
  - account42 2y ago
    Exactly. Mozilla CEO salaries might require the Google deal but development of Firefox or alternative browsers does not. Mozilla Corporation was a mistake and I look forward to a time where the leading open browser is developed as a public good again instead of as a product used to sell ads.

ricardo81 2y ago

Maybe browsers don't need to be free (or we could have the freedom to pay to avoid potential conflicts of interest).

account42 2y ago

You worry about that? I'm hoping for it!