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I'm familiar with a number of methods that are being used in Ukraine, and the ones that drone operators seem to be most keen on is autonomous targeting. Basical

I'm familiar with a number of methods that are being used in Ukraine, and the ones that drone operators seem to be most keen on is autonomous targeting. Basically, using computer vision and other sensor networks to identify and subsequently target a threat (usually in a cordoned off zone). Unfortunately the cameras, sensors, and compute hardware is expensive enough that they're trying to preserve the drone by using droppable ordnance, which is a lot harder to hit accurately. And the prices essentially mean they only get used to take out jammers, with normal FPV drones being used otherwise. They do rely on drones being able to switch between autonomous modes upon detection of jamming attempts, which seems easy enough to do (though I know nothing about the techniques). My thought was if the detection of jamming attempts is easy enough, shouldn't it be just as easy to use RF direction finding and a fairly simple greedy seeker algorithm to find and destroy the jammer?

edaemon 2y ago
There are systems that can target jammers, like an anti-radiation missile (ARM): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile. Advanced systems like ARMs use complex sensors and algorithms to determine the location of the emitter before guiding themselves to its location. That allows them to hit an inactive radiation source and avoid terrain, but it requires sensors that are too expensive to use on quadcopter-type drones. As far as I understand you can't simply follow the emitter signal because the jammer can easily take countermeasures. For example, putting the jammer inside a building or vegetation would prevent any unpiloted drone from causing any harm. Even if the jammer was exposed, cycling it on and off every 30s would still effectively interfere with flight but prevent a signal seeker system from reliably finding the jammer. Plus, many drones don't have the range to reach a jammer.
- darksaints 2y ago
  I know I'm just some dude and people on the ground likely have tried all of these ideas, but I guess then I would take the approach that you can use that sort of expensive sensor array on autonomous forward observer drones, which detect and map out jammer locations which can then be targeted with basic artillery. Basic terrain avoidance and autonomous (non-RF dependent) flight algorithms can be implemented on simple $500 drones with IP cameras and rpi onboard computers (I've built some of my own). I would imagine that within an order of magnitude of $500, you could get an autonomous drone with enough payload for any type of sensor array you could want for detecting jammers. The big problem that Ukraine has faced has been jammers operating within FPV ranges, which are typically about half the range of a 155mm artillery shell, so leave the targeting to them.
  - edaemon 2y ago
    Well, on terrain avoidance, yes, that's fairly simple. What's not simple is avoiding terrain until you reach a certain point, after which you want to collide with the terrain. Identifying that point and autonomously targeting the correct bit of terrain is the problem. There are systems that can detect and locate a signal like an RF jammer, but you have to 1) deploy that system into the area, 2) operate it, 3) maintain it, and 4) protect it. Then to make use of the intelligence it produces you need to have some sort of ordnance or PGM available. That is, you need to dedicate and risk plenty of materiel to take out a simple RF signal broadcaster, with the reward being the use of drones (including the enemy's drones). I don't think your approach is ill-conceived or anything, but the reality for both Ukraine and Russia is that it's really difficult to properly implement that approach. I think the calculation is pretty simple, really: the cost of developing and using a reliable jammer-seeking drone is much higher than the cost of a second jammer.
deleted 2y ago
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maxglute 2y ago
>Unfortunately the cameras, sensors, and compute hardware is expensive enough I wonder how much more expensive. My feeling is a better equipped military with greater ISR capacities can probably better discriminate targets and hence make more efficiently/economical use of smarter/expensive drones. What's the proverb where the poor stays poor because they have spend just to keep afloat and never get chance to invest. A force with inferior ISR has to spam cheap drones because they don't have the expensive hardware to employ less highend drones that probably take less manpower etc etc, and problem spirals. By highend I don't mean US MIC shitshow like switchblade that cost 60-80k, there are DJI drones with AESA radar (more advanced than most gen3.5 fighters) that cost 8k, which is to say the highend component costs can be "reasonable"
ezekiel68 2y ago
Alrighty then. Let's start the doomsday clock for the date when real SkyNet goes live.
rtkwe 2y ago
Most drone controllers sold on the market today already have a built in feature to detect loss of signal between the receiver on the craft and the transmitter. It's usually called Fly Away Prevention or failsafe and the detection method is pretty simple. I think the major issue with having RF seeking drones is the direction finding itself. Being able to do that cheaply would probably require a fairly expensive antenna array and SDR to do the processing.

edaemon 2y ago

There are systems that can target jammers, like an anti-radiation missile (ARM): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile. Advanced systems like ARMs use complex sensors and algorithms to determine the location of the emitter before guiding themselves to its location. That allows them to hit an inactive radiation source and avoid terrain, but it requires sensors that are too expensive to use on quadcopter-type drones. As far as I understand you can't simply follow the emitter signal because the jammer can easily take countermeasures. For example, putting the jammer inside a building or vegetation would prevent any unpiloted drone from causing any harm. Even if the jammer was exposed, cycling it on and off every 30s would still effectively interfere with flight but prevent a signal seeker system from reliably finding the jammer. Plus, many drones don't have the range to reach a jammer.

darksaints 2y ago
I know I'm just some dude and people on the ground likely have tried all of these ideas, but I guess then I would take the approach that you can use that sort of expensive sensor array on autonomous forward observer drones, which detect and map out jammer locations which can then be targeted with basic artillery. Basic terrain avoidance and autonomous (non-RF dependent) flight algorithms can be implemented on simple $500 drones with IP cameras and rpi onboard computers (I've built some of my own). I would imagine that within an order of magnitude of $500, you could get an autonomous drone with enough payload for any type of sensor array you could want for detecting jammers. The big problem that Ukraine has faced has been jammers operating within FPV ranges, which are typically about half the range of a 155mm artillery shell, so leave the targeting to them.
- edaemon 2y ago
  Well, on terrain avoidance, yes, that's fairly simple. What's not simple is avoiding terrain until you reach a certain point, after which you want to collide with the terrain. Identifying that point and autonomously targeting the correct bit of terrain is the problem. There are systems that can detect and locate a signal like an RF jammer, but you have to 1) deploy that system into the area, 2) operate it, 3) maintain it, and 4) protect it. Then to make use of the intelligence it produces you need to have some sort of ordnance or PGM available. That is, you need to dedicate and risk plenty of materiel to take out a simple RF signal broadcaster, with the reward being the use of drones (including the enemy's drones). I don't think your approach is ill-conceived or anything, but the reality for both Ukraine and Russia is that it's really difficult to properly implement that approach. I think the calculation is pretty simple, really: the cost of developing and using a reliable jammer-seeking drone is much higher than the cost of a second jammer.

deleted 2y ago

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maxglute 2y ago

>Unfortunately the cameras, sensors, and compute hardware is expensive enough I wonder how much more expensive. My feeling is a better equipped military with greater ISR capacities can probably better discriminate targets and hence make more efficiently/economical use of smarter/expensive drones. What's the proverb where the poor stays poor because they have spend just to keep afloat and never get chance to invest. A force with inferior ISR has to spam cheap drones because they don't have the expensive hardware to employ less highend drones that probably take less manpower etc etc, and problem spirals. By highend I don't mean US MIC shitshow like switchblade that cost 60-80k, there are DJI drones with AESA radar (more advanced than most gen3.5 fighters) that cost 8k, which is to say the highend component costs can be "reasonable"

ezekiel68 2y ago

Alrighty then. Let's start the doomsday clock for the date when real SkyNet goes live.

rtkwe 2y ago

Most drone controllers sold on the market today already have a built in feature to detect loss of signal between the receiver on the craft and the transmitter. It's usually called Fly Away Prevention or failsafe and the detection method is pretty simple. I think the major issue with having RF seeking drones is the direction finding itself. Being able to do that cheaply would probably require a fairly expensive antenna array and SDR to do the processing.