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I can't tell if this is Russian propaganda or just terminal naïveté. This war is going on because Russia, without justifiable provocation, invaded another sove

I can't tell if this is Russian propaganda or just terminal naïveté. This war is going on because Russia, without justifiable provocation, invaded another sovereign nation. There is nothing for the Ukrainians to "negotiate" about other than Russia leaving their land. If I hypothetically put a gun to your head and told you to give me your wallet and the credentials to your bank accounts, no amount of "negotiation" would make your property legally mine or what I did any less than armed robbery. Same here.

ted_dunning 2y ago
I think the propagandist was trying to make an analogy with the distinguishable outcomes of "dead with no wallet" and "unharmed with no wallet". In the case of Ukraine, Russian state media have often claimed their goal is to exterminate Ukrainians and their culture so that distinction would not exist.
racional 2y ago
The "the Ukrainians wanted to negotiate, but NATO wouldn't let them" line is definitely standard tankie propaganda. And lo and behold, within literal seconds of putting forth this perfectly straightforward observation -- which granted might sound slightly, vaguely controversial, but really isn't to anyone following the basic event chronology of this conflict (and the various false narratives that people keep mindlessly repeating about it) -- someone had to flag it.
CapricornNoble 2y ago
[flagged]
- mopsi 2y ago
  The quoted parts have nothing to with how the events really unfolded. US military aid to Ukraine remained at stable 300-400m USD per year in the six years preceding the full-scale invasion - without a "counter-escalation". The opposite happened: by 2021, the fighting in Ukraine had died down to sniping and sporadic shelling on the frontline. Ukrainian losses for the entire year were 79 soldiers. If anything, the greatest single US-related factor for the full-scale invasion was the humiliating retreat from Kabul, which signaled that the US would not stand by its commitments. Russian planning for the invasion began around the time of the retreat.
  - CapricornNoble 2y ago
    >>>Russian planning for the invasion began around the time of the retreat. Do you have a source for that? I'd love to read any insight into that process. My personal, totally unsubstantiated, opinion is that Russia began planning an invasion in 2019 after Poroshenko signed a Constitutional Amendment pledging Ukraine to seek NATO membership, which was followed up by Zelensky promising a NATO referendum the same year.[1][2] I suspect Putin initiated planning but was unprepared for anything prior to mid-2020....and then invasion planning was derailed by COVID. Forces couldn't be postured until they got that mess under control, and then you also need a big annual exercise as pretext for moving that much combat power into their assembly areas. Hmmmm....I need to go back and take a hard look at the early force flows, as well as Russian rhetoric in response to the 2019 political decisions by Ukraine. [1] https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-signs-constitutional-amendment-on-nato-eu-membership/29779430.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-signs-constitution... [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-promises-nato-referendum-as-part-of-path-to-west/29982943.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-promises-nato-refe...
    - baybal2 2y ago
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- baybal2 2y ago
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- racional 2y ago
  As if nobody anticipated this? This is an attempt to distract from the parent's main point, rather than respond to it.
Ray20 2y ago
>There is nothing for the Ukrainians to "negotiate" about other than Russia leaving their land. Are the Ukrainians aware of this? Because massive forced conscription and closed borders for leaving are strongly pointing out against it. >no amount of "negotiation" would make your property legally mine Negotiations are needed not for legality, but for example, to stop mass forced conscription of people who doesn't want to die for political ambitions of Zelensky, corrupt Ukranian government or for something else, that they think doesn't worth dying for.
- racional 2y ago
  The Ukrainians will decide for themselves if and when to negotiate, and on what terms. They will also decide -- for themselves -- whether the losses they are taking are sustainable, or "worth" the just end to this war that they seek. Your idea of what they "need", what is worth dying for or otherwise valuable to them, or your general view of their government -- just doesn't factor into it.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    >The Ukrainians will decide for themselves Does not seem like it. They are not asked. They are banned from leaving the country. They are captured right on the streets and forcefully, under threat of death, sent to fight in war. > They will also decide -- for themselves -- whether the losses they are taking are sustainable, or "worth" the just end to this war that they seek. No, it's already decided for them - and decided otherwise. That's the reason borders are closed and Ukrainians are sent to frontlines against their will > Your idea of what they "need", what is worth dying for That's not my idea, that's their idea - otherwise there would be no need for closed borders and forced conscription.
    - racional 2y ago
      You still don't get to tell them when they "need" to negotiate.
    - psunavy03 2y ago
      Let me rephrase that more accurately . . . the democratically-elected government of Ukraine is exercising its legitimate authority to draft people into its military during a severe war that it did not start. Just like the Allies did in World War II.

ted_dunning 2y ago

I think the propagandist was trying to make an analogy with the distinguishable outcomes of "dead with no wallet" and "unharmed with no wallet". In the case of Ukraine, Russian state media have often claimed their goal is to exterminate Ukrainians and their culture so that distinction would not exist.

racional 2y ago

The "the Ukrainians wanted to negotiate, but NATO wouldn't let them" line is definitely standard tankie propaganda. And lo and behold, within literal seconds of putting forth this perfectly straightforward observation -- which granted might sound slightly, vaguely controversial, but really isn't to anyone following the basic event chronology of this conflict (and the various false narratives that people keep mindlessly repeating about it) -- someone had to flag it.

CapricornNoble 2y ago

[flagged]

mopsi 2y ago
The quoted parts have nothing to with how the events really unfolded. US military aid to Ukraine remained at stable 300-400m USD per year in the six years preceding the full-scale invasion - without a "counter-escalation". The opposite happened: by 2021, the fighting in Ukraine had died down to sniping and sporadic shelling on the frontline. Ukrainian losses for the entire year were 79 soldiers. If anything, the greatest single US-related factor for the full-scale invasion was the humiliating retreat from Kabul, which signaled that the US would not stand by its commitments. Russian planning for the invasion began around the time of the retreat.
- CapricornNoble 2y ago
  >>>Russian planning for the invasion began around the time of the retreat. Do you have a source for that? I'd love to read any insight into that process. My personal, totally unsubstantiated, opinion is that Russia began planning an invasion in 2019 after Poroshenko signed a Constitutional Amendment pledging Ukraine to seek NATO membership, which was followed up by Zelensky promising a NATO referendum the same year.[1][2] I suspect Putin initiated planning but was unprepared for anything prior to mid-2020....and then invasion planning was derailed by COVID. Forces couldn't be postured until they got that mess under control, and then you also need a big annual exercise as pretext for moving that much combat power into their assembly areas. Hmmmm....I need to go back and take a hard look at the early force flows, as well as Russian rhetoric in response to the 2019 political decisions by Ukraine. [1] https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-signs-constitutional-amendment-on-nato-eu-membership/29779430.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-signs-constitution... [2] https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-promises-nato-referendum-as-part-of-path-to-west/29982943.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-president-promises-nato-refe...
  - baybal2 2y ago
    [dead]
baybal2 2y ago
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racional 2y ago
As if nobody anticipated this? This is an attempt to distract from the parent's main point, rather than respond to it.

Ray20 2y ago

>There is nothing for the Ukrainians to "negotiate" about other than Russia leaving their land. Are the Ukrainians aware of this? Because massive forced conscription and closed borders for leaving are strongly pointing out against it. >no amount of "negotiation" would make your property legally mine Negotiations are needed not for legality, but for example, to stop mass forced conscription of people who doesn't want to die for political ambitions of Zelensky, corrupt Ukranian government or for something else, that they think doesn't worth dying for.

racional 2y ago
The Ukrainians will decide for themselves if and when to negotiate, and on what terms. They will also decide -- for themselves -- whether the losses they are taking are sustainable, or "worth" the just end to this war that they seek. Your idea of what they "need", what is worth dying for or otherwise valuable to them, or your general view of their government -- just doesn't factor into it.
- Ray20 2y ago
  >The Ukrainians will decide for themselves Does not seem like it. They are not asked. They are banned from leaving the country. They are captured right on the streets and forcefully, under threat of death, sent to fight in war. > They will also decide -- for themselves -- whether the losses they are taking are sustainable, or "worth" the just end to this war that they seek. No, it's already decided for them - and decided otherwise. That's the reason borders are closed and Ukrainians are sent to frontlines against their will > Your idea of what they "need", what is worth dying for That's not my idea, that's their idea - otherwise there would be no need for closed borders and forced conscription.
  - racional 2y ago
    You still don't get to tell them when they "need" to negotiate.
  - psunavy03 2y ago
    Let me rephrase that more accurately . . . the democratically-elected government of Ukraine is exercising its legitimate authority to draft people into its military during a severe war that it did not start. Just like the Allies did in World War II.