11 ms·

Disagree. People use Google because it's the default, not because they will go out of their way to keep using it. The minute Apple changes the iPhone default, a

by causal 2y ago

Disagree. People use Google because it's the default, not because they will go out of their way to keep using it. The minute Apple changes the iPhone default, all but a few iPhone users stop using Google.

chadash 2y ago
Chrome is not anyone's default browser, but it still has dominance. People will be bothered a little under some circumstances.
- acdha 2y ago
  Chrome is a complicated case in general because Google poured money into promoting Chrome and had some of the most popular sites on the web promoting it heavily and actively sabotaged Firefox at several key points. I respect a lot of the Chrome team’s early work but it’s very hard for me to see that as a story about fair competition alone.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    Yeah, this is the thing that gets me. Chrome is the (rare) exception when we're talking about defaults generally winning, not the rule. An interesting thought experiment might be to imagine if Chrome was actually somehow the default browser on Windows and/or macOS. I think we could expect Edge's and/or Safari's market share numbers to be much lower than they are now if that were the case.
  - jfoster 2y ago
    So, to summarize: defaults are powerful, but advertising is more powerful.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      Specifically, Google was leveraging their existence as "THE web" to push their web browser. Every single Google property aggressively displayed banners and reminders and nag prompts ensuring you "Gmail is best in Chrome" and other nonsense that "Just one click here to fix". Yes, putting a single button with vague words in front of users almost always gets a lot of clicks, which we've known for decades, and it turns out, if you have the attention of nearly the entire web-browsing world, you can put that button in front of people's faces way more than your competitors. It should have been considered billions of dollars of free advertising for Chrome that should have been assessed against them somehow. It's blatantly unfair and should have been shut down in literally days, but nooooooooo we aren't allowed to have regulation here in the states.
    - acdha 2y ago
      Not just advertising: Mozilla could not have put a “better in Firefox” button on Gmail or YouTube at any price, or forced Google to follow through on their promise around H.264, etc.
      - magicalist 2y ago
        > Mozilla could not have put a “better in Firefox” button on Gmail or YouTube at any price Microsoft is literally doing this, and yet... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/microsoft-edge-will-now-warn-users-about-the-dangers-of-downloading-google-chrome/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/microsoft-edge-will-...
      - FMecha 2y ago
        Google also tried to push PC OEMs to pre-install Chrome on their new PCs when Chrome was new.[1] Sony/VAIO is the only manufacturer to have known to take the bait.[2] [1] https://www.crn.com.au/news/google-may-pre-install-chrome-browser-129072 https://www.crn.com.au/news/google-may-pre-install-chrome-br... [2] https://thenextweb.com/news/sony-computers-google-chrome-browser-preinstalled https://thenextweb.com/news/sony-computers-google-chrome-bro...
        Izkata 2y ago
        I vaguely remember it also getting packaged in with installers for unrelated software on Windows.
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  For factual correctness, I'll point out that Chrome is the default on (Pixel) Android and ChromeOS.
- ImJamal 2y ago
  Chrome is the default on Chromebooks which has a decent marketshare.
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    Are you sure about that? As I said in another comment that’s not my experience. Might be wrong, I’ll double check tomorrow at work.
    - ImJamal 2y ago
      I am 100% positive. Which browser do you think is the default on a Chromebook?
      - aziaziazi 2y ago
        My bad, I ready to fast and understood "google search" while you wrote "chrome".
- kiwijamo 2y ago
  Very strange statement to make given a large mobile phone operating system (Android) has Chrome as the default browser. Also the default in some Linux distros such as the Raspberry Pi OS. And many PC builders bundle Chrome with their usual crapware. Other posters have also pointed out Google's own Chromebooks use Chrome by default as well. Quite a significant base especially among people who don't have the money to buy into the Apple ecosystem.
ProfessorLayton 2y ago
For those disagreeing, the power of defaults is incredibly powerful, most users are blissfully unaware on how to, or why they might want to change them. Sure, plenty will change it back, but many won't. We've seen this play out with Apple Maps already — Something that may get Apple in trouble too. Remember that Google was paying Apple 20 BILLION for the privilege, and a key reason they had an antitrust case against them!
- crazygringo 2y ago
  No, defaults aren't incredibly powerful. Chrome utterly dominates Edge on Windows, despite Edge being default. How do you explain that? The reality is that people know what they like, and most will switch to the thing they like most. Especially when it costs nothing.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    On top of that, the mindshare of "Googling it" dominates users brains just as much as Kleenex branding does. I'm sure most of us have watched someone use another search engine to look up Google before.
    - Sylamore 2y ago
      Yeah, I still say "Google it" even though I've been using DDG and more recently Kagi for years - I discovered saying anything else seems to lose people when trying to help them. Even just saying "search for" gives me deer in the headlight responses until I say "search on google".
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        Have you tried it recently? "Search for" gets me less 'deer in the headlights' looks than "google it", probably because these days most people are searching for things through apps instead of browser. Browsers are quietly becoming a niche technology with wide swaths of the population. Browse the web as a normie would, without adblocker/etc extensions and other techy web saavy, and it should quickly become apparent why. Telling people to google something is like telling them to wade into a sewer.
legitster 2y ago
> People use Google because it's the default, not because they will go out of their way to keep using it. Is this actually true? Microsoft has bent over backwards trying making it inconvenient to get Chrome + Google on any new device. There's even the whole "Edge is the #1 browser to install Chrome" meme. Normies just really like Google.
- causal 2y ago
  Fair point, but I wasn't able to verify the claim that most Windows users are not using Edge since its release. I am curious what the actual % is for new Windows PC installs that are not governed by a corporate policy.
- apexalpha 2y ago
  Not just normies, its just the best search engine…
- j_maffe 2y ago
  It's funny you say that because as an Edge user, I constantly get bombarded with popups on Google websites asking me to switch to Chrome. It's all about who's on top and how to keep it that way, not quality.
- kyleplum 2y ago
  > Is this actually true? I mean Google obviously thinks it is otherwise they wouldn't be paying Apple $20 billion a year.
- rtpg 2y ago
  People have buy-in to Chrome that I think might be more than the buy-in to the search engine at this point. People like their set of extensions, and know how to use it. Meanwhile if the search bar works when typing things in and gives you good results, I think a lot of people will be fine with whatever.
- belorn 2y ago
  How many stories have you seen with "I search for X, and all the top results are advertisements"? The latest that I recall that I saw on HN was "Now all results above the fold are ads". Its not uncommon to search for product X, only to find product Z being ranked above the official store of X. Google search is advertisement first, quality second. Bing may be equally crappy too. Microsoft "welcome to edge" page is a bunch of advertisement for Microsoft products and then in the corner there is a search window. I have not tested bing itself to see if their flood of advertisements are as bad as google, but I sure do not trust Microsoft. Windows start menu being overloaded with advertisements are a cautionary tale of what happen when Microsoft is copying google. Normies do not like having advertisement being thrown in their face, but they will tolerate it if they have no choice or if the advertisement is hidden enough that they do not know that what they see is a bought listing.
Maxatar 2y ago
Perhaps, but it's worth noting that Chrome became the dominant browser on Windows even though Internet Explorer/Edge is the default browser and comes preinstalled.
- kelnos 2y ago
  That's more the exception that proves the rule, though. Chrome originally came out when IE was still a steaming pile of garbage, and Google spent lots of marketing money promoting it as a better, faster alternative. (Something that Mozilla had been previously somewhat succeeding at, more or less, but they didn't have the same resources and eventually lost their gains and fell behind.) These days Chrome just has so much mind-share that it overcomes the defaults on Windows. This is by no means a common outcome. This is anecdotal, but I know far more people who use Safari instead of Chrome on macOS than who use Edge instead of Chrome on Windows; Microsoft just has such a bad reputation when it comes to browsers that Chrome is able to get over that defaults hump on Windows. But a lot of people genuinely like Safari, and trust Apple in general, so the effect is (somewhat) lessened on macOS, even though IIRC Chrome still does have the lead in market share there. Just less of one, percentage-wise.
  - Maxatar 2y ago
    You're right on some points, other points don't match up with my understanding of the issue. Chrome was a much better browser compared to the default that came installed on Windows, and certainly if someone is going to switch away from the default they will do it towards a much better alternative, on that we agree. However, despite how much I think Google as a search engine has declined in quality, I still find them to be significantly superior to the alternatives, such as Bing and even DuckDuckGo (which I believe predominantly makes use of Bing) and that people will switch from whatever default search engine Apple sets to Google.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      You're also missing the power of reputation. It takes time to build a good reputation, and it takes a really long time to overcome a bad reputation. MS built itself a really bad reputation, especially with browsers, so even if (hypothetically speaking) Edge were as good as Chrome now, it would still take a very long time to overcome the terrible reputation they earned with IE. Apple doesn't have this problem.
jonathantf2 2y ago
Not from what I've seen - I often see people searching Bing for Google then searching on there, not knowing how to change the default.
- j_maffe 2y ago
  Of course defaults mean very little for tech-savvy people. An average 50 year old who just got a new laptop isn't going to change the search engine because Bing was the default.
dijit 2y ago
if that’s true, expect another antitrust lawsuit soon after. Using market dominance to enter other markets is the problem… I say this as a heavy apple user myself btw.
notatoad 2y ago
i guess the fun thing about this is that we're about to find out if you or the person you're replying to is correct

by causal 2y ago

chadash 2y ago

Chrome is not anyone's default browser, but it still has dominance. People will be bothered a little under some circumstances.

acdha 2y ago
Chrome is a complicated case in general because Google poured money into promoting Chrome and had some of the most popular sites on the web promoting it heavily and actively sabotaged Firefox at several key points. I respect a lot of the Chrome team’s early work but it’s very hard for me to see that as a story about fair competition alone.
- kelnos 2y ago
  Yeah, this is the thing that gets me. Chrome is the (rare) exception when we're talking about defaults generally winning, not the rule. An interesting thought experiment might be to imagine if Chrome was actually somehow the default browser on Windows and/or macOS. I think we could expect Edge's and/or Safari's market share numbers to be much lower than they are now if that were the case.
- jfoster 2y ago
  So, to summarize: defaults are powerful, but advertising is more powerful.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    Specifically, Google was leveraging their existence as "THE web" to push their web browser. Every single Google property aggressively displayed banners and reminders and nag prompts ensuring you "Gmail is best in Chrome" and other nonsense that "Just one click here to fix". Yes, putting a single button with vague words in front of users almost always gets a lot of clicks, which we've known for decades, and it turns out, if you have the attention of nearly the entire web-browsing world, you can put that button in front of people's faces way more than your competitors. It should have been considered billions of dollars of free advertising for Chrome that should have been assessed against them somehow. It's blatantly unfair and should have been shut down in literally days, but nooooooooo we aren't allowed to have regulation here in the states.
  - acdha 2y ago
    Not just advertising: Mozilla could not have put a “better in Firefox” button on Gmail or YouTube at any price, or forced Google to follow through on their promise around H.264, etc.
    - magicalist 2y ago
      > Mozilla could not have put a “better in Firefox” button on Gmail or YouTube at any price Microsoft is literally doing this, and yet... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/microsoft-edge-will-now-warn-users-about-the-dangers-of-downloading-google-chrome/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/12/microsoft-edge-will-...
    - FMecha 2y ago
      Google also tried to push PC OEMs to pre-install Chrome on their new PCs when Chrome was new.[1] Sony/VAIO is the only manufacturer to have known to take the bait.[2] [1] https://www.crn.com.au/news/google-may-pre-install-chrome-browser-129072 https://www.crn.com.au/news/google-may-pre-install-chrome-br... [2] https://thenextweb.com/news/sony-computers-google-chrome-browser-preinstalled https://thenextweb.com/news/sony-computers-google-chrome-bro...
      - Izkata 2y ago
        I vaguely remember it also getting packaged in with installers for unrelated software on Windows.
Ferret7446 2y ago
For factual correctness, I'll point out that Chrome is the default on (Pixel) Android and ChromeOS.
ImJamal 2y ago
Chrome is the default on Chromebooks which has a decent marketshare.
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  Are you sure about that? As I said in another comment that’s not my experience. Might be wrong, I’ll double check tomorrow at work.
  - ImJamal 2y ago
    I am 100% positive. Which browser do you think is the default on a Chromebook?
    - aziaziazi 2y ago
      My bad, I ready to fast and understood "google search" while you wrote "chrome".
kiwijamo 2y ago
Very strange statement to make given a large mobile phone operating system (Android) has Chrome as the default browser. Also the default in some Linux distros such as the Raspberry Pi OS. And many PC builders bundle Chrome with their usual crapware. Other posters have also pointed out Google's own Chromebooks use Chrome by default as well. Quite a significant base especially among people who don't have the money to buy into the Apple ecosystem.

ProfessorLayton 2y ago

For those disagreeing, the power of defaults is incredibly powerful, most users are blissfully unaware on how to, or why they might want to change them. Sure, plenty will change it back, but many won't. We've seen this play out with Apple Maps already — Something that may get Apple in trouble too. Remember that Google was paying Apple 20 BILLION for the privilege, and a key reason they had an antitrust case against them!

crazygringo 2y ago
No, defaults aren't incredibly powerful. Chrome utterly dominates Edge on Windows, despite Edge being default. How do you explain that? The reality is that people know what they like, and most will switch to the thing they like most. Especially when it costs nothing.
- talldayo 2y ago
  On top of that, the mindshare of "Googling it" dominates users brains just as much as Kleenex branding does. I'm sure most of us have watched someone use another search engine to look up Google before.
  - Sylamore 2y ago
    Yeah, I still say "Google it" even though I've been using DDG and more recently Kagi for years - I discovered saying anything else seems to lose people when trying to help them. Even just saying "search for" gives me deer in the headlight responses until I say "search on google".
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      Have you tried it recently? "Search for" gets me less 'deer in the headlights' looks than "google it", probably because these days most people are searching for things through apps instead of browser. Browsers are quietly becoming a niche technology with wide swaths of the population. Browse the web as a normie would, without adblocker/etc extensions and other techy web saavy, and it should quickly become apparent why. Telling people to google something is like telling them to wade into a sewer.

legitster 2y ago

> People use Google because it's the default, not because they will go out of their way to keep using it. Is this actually true? Microsoft has bent over backwards trying making it inconvenient to get Chrome + Google on any new device. There's even the whole "Edge is the #1 browser to install Chrome" meme. Normies just really like Google.

causal 2y ago
Fair point, but I wasn't able to verify the claim that most Windows users are not using Edge since its release. I am curious what the actual % is for new Windows PC installs that are not governed by a corporate policy.
apexalpha 2y ago
Not just normies, its just the best search engine…
j_maffe 2y ago
It's funny you say that because as an Edge user, I constantly get bombarded with popups on Google websites asking me to switch to Chrome. It's all about who's on top and how to keep it that way, not quality.
kyleplum 2y ago
> Is this actually true? I mean Google obviously thinks it is otherwise they wouldn't be paying Apple $20 billion a year.
rtpg 2y ago
People have buy-in to Chrome that I think might be more than the buy-in to the search engine at this point. People like their set of extensions, and know how to use it. Meanwhile if the search bar works when typing things in and gives you good results, I think a lot of people will be fine with whatever.
belorn 2y ago
How many stories have you seen with "I search for X, and all the top results are advertisements"? The latest that I recall that I saw on HN was "Now all results above the fold are ads". Its not uncommon to search for product X, only to find product Z being ranked above the official store of X. Google search is advertisement first, quality second. Bing may be equally crappy too. Microsoft "welcome to edge" page is a bunch of advertisement for Microsoft products and then in the corner there is a search window. I have not tested bing itself to see if their flood of advertisements are as bad as google, but I sure do not trust Microsoft. Windows start menu being overloaded with advertisements are a cautionary tale of what happen when Microsoft is copying google. Normies do not like having advertisement being thrown in their face, but they will tolerate it if they have no choice or if the advertisement is hidden enough that they do not know that what they see is a bought listing.

Maxatar 2y ago

Perhaps, but it's worth noting that Chrome became the dominant browser on Windows even though Internet Explorer/Edge is the default browser and comes preinstalled.

kelnos 2y ago
That's more the exception that proves the rule, though. Chrome originally came out when IE was still a steaming pile of garbage, and Google spent lots of marketing money promoting it as a better, faster alternative. (Something that Mozilla had been previously somewhat succeeding at, more or less, but they didn't have the same resources and eventually lost their gains and fell behind.) These days Chrome just has so much mind-share that it overcomes the defaults on Windows. This is by no means a common outcome. This is anecdotal, but I know far more people who use Safari instead of Chrome on macOS than who use Edge instead of Chrome on Windows; Microsoft just has such a bad reputation when it comes to browsers that Chrome is able to get over that defaults hump on Windows. But a lot of people genuinely like Safari, and trust Apple in general, so the effect is (somewhat) lessened on macOS, even though IIRC Chrome still does have the lead in market share there. Just less of one, percentage-wise.
- Maxatar 2y ago
  You're right on some points, other points don't match up with my understanding of the issue. Chrome was a much better browser compared to the default that came installed on Windows, and certainly if someone is going to switch away from the default they will do it towards a much better alternative, on that we agree. However, despite how much I think Google as a search engine has declined in quality, I still find them to be significantly superior to the alternatives, such as Bing and even DuckDuckGo (which I believe predominantly makes use of Bing) and that people will switch from whatever default search engine Apple sets to Google.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    You're also missing the power of reputation. It takes time to build a good reputation, and it takes a really long time to overcome a bad reputation. MS built itself a really bad reputation, especially with browsers, so even if (hypothetically speaking) Edge were as good as Chrome now, it would still take a very long time to overcome the terrible reputation they earned with IE. Apple doesn't have this problem.

jonathantf2 2y ago

Not from what I've seen - I often see people searching Bing for Google then searching on there, not knowing how to change the default.

j_maffe 2y ago
Of course defaults mean very little for tech-savvy people. An average 50 year old who just got a new laptop isn't going to change the search engine because Bing was the default.

dijit 2y ago

if that’s true, expect another antitrust lawsuit soon after. Using market dominance to enter other markets is the problem… I say this as a heavy apple user myself btw.

notatoad 2y ago

i guess the fun thing about this is that we're about to find out if you or the person you're replying to is correct