3 ms·

We've given them billions of dollars to build here, they can afford to pull their heads our of their asses and suck it up.

talldayo 2y ago
They can, their customers can't. What will we build here, state-side? Intel doesn't ship EUV yet, which means TSMC will have them beat on density for the next 5-10 years guaranteed. They could angle for the 14nm node they love so much, but Samsung is hot on their heels and does it all cheaper. Anything bigger than that can be had from a domestic GlobalFoundries fab that was built a decade ago. If America didn't have to compete with the free market to ship an attractive product, it would be a different story. But the parent is right; it's prospector-mentality to assume America would be fixed by fabbing silicon domestically.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  >If America didn't have to compete with the free market to ship an attractive product, it would be a different story That's why you invest in it until you have a competitive product. The "free market" is a myth anyways. Most of the competition is playing with house money. Forty-five years ago, there was no high-tech industry in most of Asia. Now it's the only place where you can get most electronic goods made at scale. Why? It's not just the cheaper labor. If that were the case, companies wouldn't have stayed in China or South Korea nearly as long as they have. It's because the governments in these countries, China especially, said "damn the externalities, full speed ahead" on a category of manufacturing that would give them incredible leverage over world affairs. They dumped products into the market, knowing that some Wharton-educated coke addict in lower Manhattan would cry "Uncle!" when he saw the prices his investment targets were going to have to compete against. Pump more money into manufacturing, lather, rinse, repeat. Now the majority of consumer goods of any type sold anywhere are Chinese. We could do the same, you just have to tell the Wall Street types it's their necks on the line if the US loses its competitive edge.

talldayo 2y ago

They can, their customers can't. What will we build here, state-side? Intel doesn't ship EUV yet, which means TSMC will have them beat on density for the next 5-10 years guaranteed. They could angle for the 14nm node they love so much, but Samsung is hot on their heels and does it all cheaper. Anything bigger than that can be had from a domestic GlobalFoundries fab that was built a decade ago. If America didn't have to compete with the free market to ship an attractive product, it would be a different story. But the parent is right; it's prospector-mentality to assume America would be fixed by fabbing silicon domestically.

lenerdenator 2y ago
>If America didn't have to compete with the free market to ship an attractive product, it would be a different story That's why you invest in it until you have a competitive product. The "free market" is a myth anyways. Most of the competition is playing with house money. Forty-five years ago, there was no high-tech industry in most of Asia. Now it's the only place where you can get most electronic goods made at scale. Why? It's not just the cheaper labor. If that were the case, companies wouldn't have stayed in China or South Korea nearly as long as they have. It's because the governments in these countries, China especially, said "damn the externalities, full speed ahead" on a category of manufacturing that would give them incredible leverage over world affairs. They dumped products into the market, knowing that some Wharton-educated coke addict in lower Manhattan would cry "Uncle!" when he saw the prices his investment targets were going to have to compete against. Pump more money into manufacturing, lather, rinse, repeat. Now the majority of consumer goods of any type sold anywhere are Chinese. We could do the same, you just have to tell the Wall Street types it's their necks on the line if the US loses its competitive edge.