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> 1) Okay, but in terms of getting shit done (one of your points) how is it helpful to people to learn two languages? It's actually pretty clarifying. Two diff

by ecjhdnc2025 2y ago

> 1) Okay, but in terms of getting shit done (one of your points) how is it helpful to people to learn two languages? It's actually pretty clarifying. Two different perspectives on one single problem domain is almost always good for your brain. Like being bilingual. Also I would dispute that there are not, fundamentally, two different environments in the browser and Node backend even now. One of those environments is a GUI which is naturally a good application for async. The other is not. Backend web development is still largely input -> process -> output. Node is just shoehorning JS in, and pretending that JavaScript's weaknesses are strengths. > Also speaking of over engineered, how is having to run a standalone web server along with PHP, and then having to have an entire JS stack as well not over engineered? Not sure what you mean. There are a bunch of ways to run PHP -- one is with a process manager (php-fpm, not unlike things like PM2). Another is to run Apache as a backend to something like Caddy or nginx or some other cacher; this is actually a highly robust way to do things, because Apache can be tuned in so many different ways. And yet another is to use FrankenPHP, which is Caddy with a PHP process manager. I personally treat JS at the front end (Vue/Nuxt) as a client application development environment, and PHP as a backend development environment, as clean separate things defined by an interface. I don't believe that blurring the boundary between code running in the client and code running in the server has ever been a good idea, nor will it ever be. It just leads to edge cases where the code has to ask, and developer traps where developers don't realise they need to know.

throwitaway1123 2y ago
> One of those environments is a GUI which is naturally a good application for async. The other is not. Backend web development is still largely input -> process -> output. Node is just shoehorning JS in, and pretending that JavaScript's weaknesses are strengths. Until you need to perform two or more IO operations at the same time (e.g. more than one of: database query, Redis query, HTTP request, file operation, etc). Then it becomes: input -> Promise.all (or Promise.race, or Promise.allSettled, or Promise.any) -> output. If you watch Ryan Dahl's original presentation introducing Node, you'll see that JS was explicitly chosen because of its asynchronous nature — it wasn't shoehorned in: https://youtu.be/EeYvFl7li9E?t=795&si=FG0yxaGoCgz1rqOX https://youtu.be/EeYvFl7li9E?t=795&si=FG0yxaGoCgz1rqOX > Not sure what you mean. There are a bunch of ways to run PHP Node doesn't require an upstream CGI server at all. There's a server built-in to the Node binary: https://nodejs.org/docs/latest-v22.x/api/http.html#class-httpserver https://nodejs.org/docs/latest-v22.x/api/http.html#class-htt...
- ecjhdnc2025 2y ago
  > Node doesn't require an upstream CGI server at all. There's a server built-in to the Node binary Though you'll still want a process manager for this to make sure it stays up. Which it won't, over the long term. PHP also has a built-in webserver, which you shouldn't use. FrankenPHP is the better way to do this with PHP: you get a full Caddy build, with all that offers, with a built-in PHP engine.
  - throwitaway1123 2y ago
    The FrankenPHP binary also needs a daemon to manage it, which is why the docs recommend using Docker. So you end up with Docker (or SystemD or whatever you prefer), managing Caddy, which is in turn managing PHP. This is because the server which ships with PHP is documented with a big red warning that says something to the effect of "don't actually use this in production, this is just a dev server" [1]. Node's built-in web server is production ready, so you can safely cut out the reverse proxy middleman. I don't actually have any major qualms about the FrankenPHP stack, I was just trying to intuit what the original commenter meant when they said "standalone server". [1] https://www.php.net/manual/en/features.commandline.webserver.php https://www.php.net/manual/en/features.commandline.webserver...
    - ecjhdnc2025 2y ago
      FrankenPHP doesn't proxy to the PHP dev server. It is a PHP SAPI process manager itself. You should be able to run FrankenPHP as the front end server just fine -- Caddy is excellent and it's my production front-end almost everywhere anyway (the Let's Encrypt support alone is worth it). Though depending on the deployment I sometimes use Apache and mod_php still for the backend; this is still modestly less painful if you want to use WordPress in the same environment. There is absolutely no way I would put node at the front of any server; I'd reverse proxy to it as a matter of principle, with very locked-down routing. The security situation with node package dependencies is hilariously bad, and some other server should be managing HTTPS. Personally I consider the NPM ecosystem to be a horrific side-road in web development, and I think by contrast PHP is at least honest about what it is and what it is not. The amount of cargo-culting advice around package management in NPM is frightening.

throwitaway1123 2y ago

> One of those environments is a GUI which is naturally a good application for async. The other is not. Backend web development is still largely input -> process -> output. Node is just shoehorning JS in, and pretending that JavaScript's weaknesses are strengths. Until you need to perform two or more IO operations at the same time (e.g. more than one of: database query, Redis query, HTTP request, file operation, etc). Then it becomes: input -> Promise.all (or Promise.race, or Promise.allSettled, or Promise.any) -> output. If you watch Ryan Dahl's original presentation introducing Node, you'll see that JS was explicitly chosen because of its asynchronous nature — it wasn't shoehorned in: https://youtu.be/EeYvFl7li9E?t=795&si=FG0yxaGoCgz1rqOX https://youtu.be/EeYvFl7li9E?t=795&si=FG0yxaGoCgz1rqOX > Not sure what you mean. There are a bunch of ways to run PHP Node doesn't require an upstream CGI server at all. There's a server built-in to the Node binary: https://nodejs.org/docs/latest-v22.x/api/http.html#class-httpserver https://nodejs.org/docs/latest-v22.x/api/http.html#class-htt...

ecjhdnc2025 2y ago
> Node doesn't require an upstream CGI server at all. There's a server built-in to the Node binary Though you'll still want a process manager for this to make sure it stays up. Which it won't, over the long term. PHP also has a built-in webserver, which you shouldn't use. FrankenPHP is the better way to do this with PHP: you get a full Caddy build, with all that offers, with a built-in PHP engine.
- throwitaway1123 2y ago
  The FrankenPHP binary also needs a daemon to manage it, which is why the docs recommend using Docker. So you end up with Docker (or SystemD or whatever you prefer), managing Caddy, which is in turn managing PHP. This is because the server which ships with PHP is documented with a big red warning that says something to the effect of "don't actually use this in production, this is just a dev server" [1]. Node's built-in web server is production ready, so you can safely cut out the reverse proxy middleman. I don't actually have any major qualms about the FrankenPHP stack, I was just trying to intuit what the original commenter meant when they said "standalone server". [1] https://www.php.net/manual/en/features.commandline.webserver.php https://www.php.net/manual/en/features.commandline.webserver...
  - ecjhdnc2025 2y ago
    FrankenPHP doesn't proxy to the PHP dev server. It is a PHP SAPI process manager itself. You should be able to run FrankenPHP as the front end server just fine -- Caddy is excellent and it's my production front-end almost everywhere anyway (the Let's Encrypt support alone is worth it). Though depending on the deployment I sometimes use Apache and mod_php still for the backend; this is still modestly less painful if you want to use WordPress in the same environment. There is absolutely no way I would put node at the front of any server; I'd reverse proxy to it as a matter of principle, with very locked-down routing. The security situation with node package dependencies is hilariously bad, and some other server should be managing HTTPS. Personally I consider the NPM ecosystem to be a horrific side-road in web development, and I think by contrast PHP is at least honest about what it is and what it is not. The amount of cargo-culting advice around package management in NPM is frightening.